CTR on the rollers....
23 November 2003, 12:36 PM
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Do any of you guys know what the transmission losses are on a CTR or a FWD car (if there the same)?
As I had mine done yesterday and i've heard anything from 10 - 20%. I thought it would of been around the 15/16% mark.
Mine made 175 bhp @ the wheels. So i'm juxt trying to find out what it is @ the fly wheel?
Any help much appreciatted.
Cheers, Ben...
As I had mine done yesterday and i've heard anything from 10 - 20%. I thought it would of been around the 15/16% mark.
Mine made 175 bhp @ the wheels. So i'm juxt trying to find out what it is @ the fly wheel?
Any help much appreciatted.
Cheers, Ben...
23 November 2003, 01:20 PM
#2
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AFAIK... You add 20-30bhp onto the "@ wheels figure" to get the Flywheel output. 
I am probably very wrong, but that would give you around 200bhp @ Fly which is spot on for the Type-R is it not?
Cheers,
Grant
I am probably very wrong, but that would give you around 200bhp @ Fly which is spot on for the Type-R is it not?
Cheers,
Grant
23 November 2003, 05:02 PM
#4
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Yeah, I think you are right, I was just told that was how you converted power figures for a Series 2 RS Turbo...
Probably very different for a Civic Type R, have you tried www.hondarevolutions.co.uk cause I am sure that they will be able to give you more of a definate answer about this.
There are Civic Type R owners club web forums as well but I am afraid that I dont know the addresses for these.
Cheers,
Grant
Probably very different for a Civic Type R, have you tried www.hondarevolutions.co.uk cause I am sure that they will be able to give you more of a definate answer about this.
There are Civic Type R owners club web forums as well but I am afraid that I dont know the addresses for these.
Cheers,
Grant
24 November 2003, 11:05 AM
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Being that it is front wheel drive, you'll only lose 11 - 12%, so that's around 196 HP at the crank. So you're spot on.
How many runs did you have on the rollers? You need the car to be warmed up and broken in to get the above or at the rated HP.
24 November 2003, 12:37 PM
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I was told it's more like 15%, plus someone told me it makes a difference if it's a 6 speed box...
It was a Clio 172 RR day that I got invited to. Those guys were working on 15% which worked out to be spot on as most of the standard ones were making 140 @ the wheels. The slightly modded ones were making in the region of 145-50bhp.
It was a Clio 172 RR day that I got invited to. Those guys were working on 15% which worked out to be spot on as most of the standard ones were making 140 @ the wheels. The slightly modded ones were making in the region of 145-50bhp.
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24 November 2003, 12:50 PM
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------------------------------------------------------------------
I was told it's more like 15%, plus someone told me it makes a difference if it's a 6 speed box...
It was a Clio 172 RR day that I got invited to. Those guys were working on 15% which worked out to be spot on as most of the standard ones were making 140 @ the wheels. The slightly modded ones were making in the region of 145-50bhp.
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A good running engine and transmission would not normally lose 15%, especially 20-25% that some people claim. Those that say that are simply trying to please their customers after a bad run.
10 - 12% for a FWD or RWD car is about right. I have seen countless broken in low mileage cars dynoed to produce HP at the wheels that match those rated at the crank - assuming a 12% loss. This was done with thorough testing, at least 3 runs are made to get the engine fully operational. Your first run would make xxx HP at the wheels, then the 2nd run makes 12 HP more than the 1st. Can you imagine what someone would think if they installed an induction kit or some simple modification prior to the 2nd run?? "Wow my new K&N has gained 10 HP!"
[Edited by Cosworth427 - 11/24/2003 12:54:03 PM]
I was told it's more like 15%, plus someone told me it makes a difference if it's a 6 speed box...
It was a Clio 172 RR day that I got invited to. Those guys were working on 15% which worked out to be spot on as most of the standard ones were making 140 @ the wheels. The slightly modded ones were making in the region of 145-50bhp.
------------------------------------------------------------------
A good running engine and transmission would not normally lose 15%, especially 20-25% that some people claim. Those that say that are simply trying to please their customers after a bad run.
10 - 12% for a FWD or RWD car is about right. I have seen countless broken in low mileage cars dynoed to produce HP at the wheels that match those rated at the crank - assuming a 12% loss. This was done with thorough testing, at least 3 runs are made to get the engine fully operational. Your first run would make xxx HP at the wheels, then the 2nd run makes 12 HP more than the 1st. Can you imagine what someone would think if they installed an induction kit or some simple modification prior to the 2nd run?? "Wow my new K&N has gained 10 HP!"
[Edited by Cosworth427 - 11/24/2003 12:54:03 PM]
24 November 2003, 10:38 PM
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A good running engine and transmission would not normally lose 15%, especially 20-25% that some people claim. Those that say that are simply trying to please their customers after a bad run.
[Edited by Rich D - 11/24/2003 10:39:36 PM]
25 November 2003, 11:47 AM
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Rich D, why did you give me that link? To say I am wrong? Because that site doesnt say anything so.
17% is very very high loss for RWD or FWD, for that to happen, something has to be wrong. But that site did atleast say it losses would be "no more than 17%".
25 November 2003, 04:27 PM
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These are actual results for cars on the same rolling road >>>
Clio 172:
144bhp @ wheels = 169bhp @ fly (should be 172ps aka 169bhp - 3 in a row got this)
CTR:
167bhp @ wheels = 196bhp @ fly (should be 197bhp)
306 Rallye:
142bhp @ wheels = 167bhp @ fly (should be 167bhp)
106 GTi:
103bhp @ wheels = 121bhp @ fly (should be 120bhp)
These are the actual @ wheels results we got from the very same place (can supply graphs if you don't believe me) and applying a 15% loss they ALL work out to be within a couple of bhp of the @ fly figures they are meant to be!
Clio 172:
144bhp @ wheels = 169bhp @ fly (should be 172ps aka 169bhp - 3 in a row got this)
CTR:
167bhp @ wheels = 196bhp @ fly (should be 197bhp)
306 Rallye:
142bhp @ wheels = 167bhp @ fly (should be 167bhp)
106 GTi:
103bhp @ wheels = 121bhp @ fly (should be 120bhp)
These are the actual @ wheels results we got from the very same place (can supply graphs if you don't believe me) and applying a 15% loss they ALL work out to be within a couple of bhp of the @ fly figures they are meant to be!
26 November 2003, 12:56 PM
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It's not as simple as that. Chassis dynos and the people who run them are not the gospel in what the read out!
Flywheel HP rated by manufacturers are either in SAE, JIS or EEC conditions. This means, altitude, air density, humidity, temperature all affect the horsepower made. Change any of these factors, you can lose or gain several HP.
Dyno tuners do all the can to "correct" the wheel HP until they can get close to the flywheel HP rated by the manufacturer - and that is misleading.
Just face it, those cars dynoed that day do not make as much wheel horsepower as those tested under manufacturer set conditions. You cannot just estimate and re-estimate transmission losses until you find the flywheel HP that you *think* it should have!
You can make MORE HP than what the manufacturer has claimed at the flywheel by dynoing a car in cold temperature, non-humid, sea level environment, but it doesn't mean it will make that power anywhere at anytime.
Flywheel HP rated by manufacturers are either in SAE, JIS or EEC conditions. This means, altitude, air density, humidity, temperature all affect the horsepower made. Change any of these factors, you can lose or gain several HP.
Dyno tuners do all the can to "correct" the wheel HP until they can get close to the flywheel HP rated by the manufacturer - and that is misleading.
Just face it, those cars dynoed that day do not make as much wheel horsepower as those tested under manufacturer set conditions. You cannot just estimate and re-estimate transmission losses until you find the flywheel HP that you *think* it should have!
You can make MORE HP than what the manufacturer has claimed at the flywheel by dynoing a car in cold temperature, non-humid, sea level environment, but it doesn't mean it will make that power anywhere at anytime.
26 November 2003, 08:44 PM
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For those interested, here is a graph showing VTEC Abusers CTR plotted against my Cup on the same axes...
http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/gall...parison_01.jpg
Quite different to what I expected actually!
[Edited by Rich D - 11/26/2003 8:45:31 PM]
http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/gall...parison_01.jpg
Quite different to what I expected actually!
[Edited by Rich D - 11/26/2003 8:45:31 PM]
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