tiggers

Chalkie,

No offence intended - I'm just teasing you (hence the winking smily).

I'm merely alluding to the fact that I'd prefer the P1 over the M3 - and yes I have driven both before you ask. My main problems with the BMW are image and price - for me it is vastly overpriced for what I want from a car.

tiggers.

CHALKIE

Tiggers , No offence taken, I've been looking at this and other boards too long for that now. If I could afford them both I would still have the P1 now, it was and still is a fantastic car, but there is not all that much difference between the cost of my P1 that was £36.000 when purchased and a standard M3 at £39.700.I did get a bit carried away with the extras when I specced the M3 and mine came out at considerabely more but I guess most of us are guilty of that when we buy new, and if buying secondhand we still would go for the car with all of the toys on or in if given a choice.

Des

Hi

For si325i.. should point out the M3 has a pretty impressive array of electronics... I dont think it would deserve the drivers car moniker any more than the evo would...

PS: I would still want a M3 before an EVO.

Cheers

Cosworth427

~laughs off my ribs~

Did *anyone* in this thread realise that the Boxster S has a 270 KG advantage? And that the M powered inline-6's top whack of 343 HP is only a slight transient occurence? That 80 HP advantage isn't *that* significant when you consider the weight of the damn cars, let alone that the Boxster is a true sports car design on a race track!

And yes, like many people on here said, there is always the element of the driver.

chrisp

People get hung up about bhp figures. An STI PPP has 300bhp and my old classic has 276 (standard ) so everyone immediately says the STI is quicker. When you take into account that its 200kgs heavier then your assumption maybe wrong . Noone could believe that I felt an EVO7 was slower, still a good car I must add. Comments like did you push the acelerate and did you get out of 1st gear from people who were driving their mummys shopper when I was driving my own performance cars LOL .

chrisp

Just has a look

M3 219bhp/ton
Boxster S 200bhp/ton

19bhp sounds pretty close to me, asssuming they are both standard and in optimum tune and a fully loosened up engines. I would expect the M3 to be slightly quicker but not by much. As they are pretty close, on track it comes down to gearing, aerodynamics and brakes amonst other things obviously.

mnangrybeats

Hasnt it just got switchable DSC like my Cooper S has ??

Turn it off for the track no problem...

I like the way you Scooby drivers all seem to talk about straightline performance

WISHING

Professional Driver ??? I thought you said Tim Harvey was driving

Gastro

I have to admit I find it difficult to believe that the M3 couldnt hall the Boxster in - perhaps the S was tuned - there are several 3.4 and twin turbo conversions around....

I think the E46 M3 is the dog's - and it was a tough decision when I came to buy...

Gastro

Rich and Mini

tiggers, out of interest, what do you think is an attractive car and what car do you own?

People of course have different tastes, and if you don't find an M3 nice looking, then fair enough. But if you find an Impreza good looking then I have to question your eyesight

Rich

tiggers

OK Rich, Just for you I'll be drawn into this.

I currently drive an Integra Type R which like many Japanese vehicles is a bit bland, but inoffensive enough. As for Scoobys I think they are to be honest pretty ugly, but great value for money. The Mitsi EVO looks best in it's Version 6 guise, but again is no stunner.

A car's looks don't really matter to me, but a 42K price tag does. It was you and a couple of others who said the M3 was stunning - I just simply said that I think it is anything but stunning - bland is the best I could go for and that's being polite.

Cars I do think are beautiful include the Ferrari F40, the Jaguar E-Type dropheads, the Lotus Elise (S1) and the Aston DB5 to name but a few.

Sorry, but the M3 just doesn't have it. Remove the myth and look at it in the cold light of day - in the looks department it's a rep-mobile with kit and big wheels - nothing more!

Regards,

tiggers.

Rich and Mini

Integra Type R - nice! Wouldn't say it was bland at all mate!

I wasn't trying to draw you into anything, I was just wondering Just it gets my back up a bit when people slag the M3, when it is such a well rounded car. You don't seem to like any BMW though, as you've been slagging off the Z4 in another thread ( I won't get involved in that one ) I happen to like most, even though I work for them.

Rich

Skittles

Tiggers, I do see a whole load of anti-BMW (mainly M3) stuff from you on very regular occasions.

The M3s strength is its all round ability, and that is why many drivers choose it. I know you think the M3 is overpriced (most mags say it is actually underpriced!) and that people only buy it because of BMW's marketing.

It is interesting you own a type R. I have travelled in one many times. It is a great car for performance, and is very impressive in that respect. And thats it. It is just plain noisy and uncomfortable whne driving it - which is OK on a track, but a pain the rest of the time. My mate and I transported 6 other mates for a weekend in N Wales. At the first services, all the type R passengers were trying to travel in the M3 due to the noise/vibrations.

My point is this: you can't compare cars on one/two criteria, then say one is overpriced - look at the whole picture. If you are happy with a car like that, then I suppose you would think paying for comfort and refinement in addition to speed is a waste of cash! Each to their own. I personally think the Type R is overpriced, and an older Scoob is may more classy/comfortable. However, you won't see me banging on about it with alarming ferocity at ever occasion and more!

As for teh Boxter S and M3 debate. Both great cars, but totally different - chalk n' cheese. I would be surprised if the Boster did not feel more nible etc. but i you are not willing to comprimise on toys/rear seats, then teh M3 prevails.

tiggers

Rich,

I don't recall slagging off the Z4 - I've never driven one so I can't really can I? As stated in the thread the opinions were those of a business colleague who works in the US who has owned a Z4 and a Boxster - he prefers the Boxster as the Z4 is too much of a compromise for HIM!!!

And that leads me on nicely to the M3. Skittles has hit the nail on the head in his post - my opinions of the M3 itself are based on what I want from a car. In all my posts regarding the M3 I have stated this fact although it is mainly ignored due no doubt to the fact that I have dared to be disrespectful to the 'ultimate driving machine' (sic).

Yes I own an Integra Type R. It's noisy, uncomfortable for passengers etc. etc., but I love it for the performance, handling and running costs. I don't care for smart interiors, toys that have nothing to do with vehicle performance etc. etc. I like the car as it is focused in the right areas for me. I bought it for very little money (comparably to an M3 anyway) as a stop gap after some drunken idiot totalled my Elise by driving round a bend on the wrong side of the road. Later this year I may well get another Elise, maybe an EVO or even another Scooby, but for now the Integra is very entertaining.

As I've said before and will say again so you finally get it for what I want from a car the M3 is overpriced and in my opinion does not look stunning. I love it when you people say in a thread "it looks stunning" like it's a fact - it's not it's an opinion.

Just for the record my main gripe with the M3 is the hype and the marketing BS that a lot of people seem to have swallowed. Purely as a performance car it really isn't that special, but "the man down the pub" thinks it's the fastest thing on 4 wheels. I know it's well built and has a good interior, but "the man down the pub" doesn't focus on that does he now? Marketing, marketing, marketing...

On the subject of BMW's in general I do have a downer on most 3 series (including M3's) drivers as I really do feel that proportionally they are some of the most arrogant and worst drivers on the UK roads. Just the other day I saw some of the most reckless driving I've ever seen on the M66 heading north from Bury - the perpetrator was the driver of an M3 - surprise surprise.

Some people disagree with me on this, but I can only say what I see. Just the other day in the Z4 thread someone suggested taunting onlookers of their convertible BMW by throwing money at them and goading them about being able to afford one - that's not a likeable trait in my book. To a lot of people the BMW badge means you've made it - that's rather sad when you think about it. To me the badge says you're probably a w**ker which I guess is also a little sad, but evidence is evidence.

OK I'm done - at least you know where I stand now ;-)

Regards,

tiggers.

Phil M

I think M3's a pretty stunning...





Tiggers, what would you have out of an evo 7 or an M3 if they both were the same price?

[Edited by Phil M - 22/06/2003 16:36:15]

Gastro

Been doing some research on this comparison....

Boxster S - Kerb weight 1290kg
BHP 260 BHP
201 BHP/ton

E46 M3 coupe - Kerb weight 1570kg
BHP 343 BHP
218 BHP/ton

...so its not quite as simple as 80 BHP advantage - more like 20bhp...

Gastro

Mmmmm

I've got both a M3 cab and a Boxtser S both great cars.

I've had the M3 round Oulton Park, Silverstone and Bruntingthorpe and I had the last Boxster S round Bruntingthorpe.

Boxster has more grip, better chassis, better steering but the power is not in the same league, whilst it is easier adjust the attitude of the car on the throttle at the cars limits, it is less forgiving when you push beyond its limits.

The M3Cab is much quicker, more forgiving when you exceed its limits and the brakes are more progressive.

Despite the Boxster having more grip it doesn't make up for the acceleration of the M3, the M3 is actually a bit easier to drive on the track. I would be quicker in the M3 Cab than the Porsche on almost any circuit I can think of. Give the Boxster 300-320 bhp and it would probably be a different story. In this case could it have been the drivers of the cars ?

The M3 cabs actually handle a lot better than Jeremy Clarkson would have you believe. I took the M3 cab to the M Powers owners day at Silverstone and put it through its paces against other M3s, the sessions had 33 cars each mainly coupes and I have to say that in practical terms the coupe and the cab are very close, the slight bit of extra grip the coupes had didn't make much of a difference, even on the straights the weight advantage wasn't enough, surprised a lot of the coupe guys, just was down to the drivers really. On a circuit with a huge straight like bruntingthorpe the coupes performance advantage would come into play. Although the M3 coupe is undoubtedly dynamically superior to the cab, there were some stretches round Silverstone where the cab did have an advantage, (and of course more sections where the coupe did)

Recently the chap in EVO mag said he preferred the handling of the M3 cab to the coupe.

akshay67

The M3 has an awesome engine for a NA car.

From a looks perspective, I'd say it is pretty much disappointing given that you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 316ci with nice alloys, fake M3 grill and 4-exhaust conversion - something I have seen in west london and I raced - I annhilated it and thought he wasn't trying until I slowed down and let him go by - no M3 badge and arches not flared.

As far as turning heads go, the M3 will not get a glimpse compared to say a Vielside Supra - my mate has one and you begin to feel paranoid the way people stare at you!

As far as scoobies go, the P1 really does turn heads as would a well sorted classic...I doubt its because they look sexy, but moreso their off-road aura, usually coupled with that exhaust note! The M3 looks a pretty much standard saloon, much like the rest of the 3-series.

I must add though, the the 3-series convertibles look nice, although I wouldn't say that the M3 convertible looks any more special than a 316Ci. Speaking of convertibles, I'd probably get a 316Ci, debadge it and stick some nice alloys on it and cruise nice and slow and absorb the attention!

tiggers

Phil M,

To answer you hyptohetical question is difficult. If I leave aside the BMW's image (hard for me, but I'll try) then I would simply go for the car with the better real world A to B performance which is where the problem lies.

I think the EVO 7 probably has this crown in a professional's hands, but I don't think my driving ability is good enough to show up the difference between the two in the real world which means I'd have to consider them as equals in this department. Therefore I'd obviously choose the one with better resale and all round build quality (rather than just mechanical) so the M3 would be my choice.

In the real world however they are not the same price (not even close) and the BMW image is a problem for me so I'd buy the EVO and spend the difference on driving tuition so that just maybe I would be good enough to get the best out of the Mitsi.

Regards,

tiggers.

Phil M

Fair enough, i suppose its the same as me not buying a merc no matter how good the SL55 is etcetc.

Phil M

The M3 don't look too much different to the 320 325 and 330 sport models but it does look a lot different to a SE model..

And you can't get a 316 cab!

akshay67

Ok, you can get a 318 cab can't you? With my eyesight, 6's and 8's look the same!

Twin Turb vielside Supra all the way for me if I had the money though! Maybe R34 if I had even more money!

Phil M

Yeah can get a 318 cab but it ain't a sport.

Suppose its the same, if i had 100k to spend on one car i'd have a 996 turbo with the sp kit over a 360 modena.

Phil M

Yeah can get a 318 cab but it ain't a sport.

Suppose its the same, if i had 100k to spend on one car i'd have a 996 turbo with the sp kit over a 360 modena.

akshay67

100k is a lot of money!

M3 is 42k

A Twin Turb Vielside Supra seeing the other end of 500BHP would be around 18k I'd guess...

R34 around 30k?

Rich and Mini

Hahaha, is this guy for real?

Totally different cars, why even bother comparing?

Rich

advevo

I prefer RWD cars

AWD makes a bad driver look good. Go sit in an m3 put dsc off and try a wet track.

I bet lots of you have **** in their pants.

PS i have an evo 7RS bmw 330i and an old e30 325i with LSD it s my drift car.

WRX280

Akshay,

the Veilside Supra is not a twin turbo, it had a T88 Single Turbo conversion on it