Beastie

iTrader: (2)

I am having the Prodrive 330mm big brake kit fitted later on this week. However I have now met a few people that have had problems with the discs warping and cracking with these kits. Is this normal with these items or are they generally good?
The guys I spoke to all had problems with their cars during track days. I therefore assumed that this was the mitigating factor as track days have a tendency to do your brakes in!
Can anyone state there experience good or bad so that I can make an informed decision.
All advice much appreciated.
Beastie

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

are they really good then?
BTT

T-uk

a guy I know keeps bu66ering his on track,but Subaru replace them for him without any questions .I am sure for the same sort of money there are better lasting kits out there.

MartinM

To cut a long story short (and IMHO of course)

Alcons:

- discs do warp. Even on road use only
- There is a 3yr warranty tho'...
- ...but there is anecdotal evidence that IM are trying to get out of replacing them for some people
- ...and if you have to buy the Alcon discs they are circa £690 + VAT
- you are stuck with buying pads from Subaru at circa £150/set
- and the purists say the one piece disk/bell design for high performance brakes is fundamentally flawed

Others (AP/Brembo/Godspeed etc)
- hardly any (I know of none) reports of discs warping
- one year warranty
- ...and if you have to buy, then circa £300 for a pair
- and there are a much wider variety of pads available from circa £55 to £150. At the top end (which is the same as the Subaru price) we are talking real high performance carbon metallics etc
- and the purists say the disc/separate bell design is spot on!!

You can play one supplier off against another, but my impression is that the 'others' generally work out a bit cheaper. Try the normal suspects - Scoobymania, Scoobysport, TSL, Godspeed etc

Hope this helps
Martin (AP 330mm 4 pots on a P1 - fantastic brakes, although a bit noisy on high speed stops (to be investigated). Can't help but keep stopping 10-15 yards before T-junctions, even when braking late!)

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

T-UK
I believe I know exactly who you are speaking about as it was him I had in mind when I started this post.
All brakes can warp but are the Alcons more prone to warping than anything else?
Has nobody anything good to say about these brakes? or has everybody had the same problems? It isnt encouraging to say the least and I am currently thinking about cancelling the brakes.
Maybe I should have smelt a rat when they said "we carry these in stock".
Beastie

SimonH

Not wishing to hijack this thread but this is also a concern of mine...
Is it not possible to run the Alcon callipers with a disc/bell setup...say a Godspeed set of discs?

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

I have just spoken to the dealer He confirmed the brakes are covered for 3 years or 60000miles whichever comes first. He says he has sold 20 sets of these brakes and had no warranty claims on them whatsoever.
I believe him to be genuine and I am sure his reputation rests on being honest with his customers.

However clearly they can be problematical.

Need more input!

Beastie

T-uk

give AWD motorsport a call and see what upgrades they are offering,also Dave Brown used to work at a local dealership,so could probably tell you if the Prodrive stuff is any good.

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Cheers Fizz
I have seen those but I would be buying a 6 pot kit if I dont buy the Alcons.
As the Alcons are costing 1100quid+vat I am finding it hard to find APs that match that price. Then I would need to fit them myself, whilst the Alcons are costed fitted.
Fitting brakes isnt hard for me, but I just dont have the time just now, and I am unlikely to until at least March next year.

I will phone Dave Brown and see what he has to say. Anyone got the number, Its not in my Norwegian telephone book.

Beastie

T-uk

AWD 01738 633336 or if you look in the scottish forum you may find an E-mail for Dave

Fizz

iTrader: (1)

six pot kit coming soon I believe. If it's anything like the four pot quality then watch out AP etc!!!

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Beastie,

I've had my Alcons for 18 months now and have been delighted with the performance. After the well publicised DS3000 pad problem that ate disks and wheels and were replaced without question from the dealer. not heard of any warping problems personally and i know a couple of others with the kit.

One thing to think about is how much value will the AP/brembo kit add to your car come resale time. Very little from a Subaru dealer. The Alcon kit will be a much more desireable extra.

Was speaking to the guys on the Alcon stand at the Autosport show and they told me they are currently working an a seperate Bell/disc. I'm sure by the time I need to replace mine (no wear yet !) these will be on offer.

Oh yeh, nearly forgot, The Alcons also look much better.

Steve.

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

SteveB
Many thanks for some positive feedback about the Alcons. Personally if IM was having to replace so many for warping you would have thought they would have devised an upgrade to stop it happening. After all, these brakes have been available for a long time. Pad material plays a big part in braking performance/wear and its clear the pad material now on offer is far more sympathetic than the original supplied pads.
Still to speak to AWD (Its too early yet)
Beastie

chuckster

Ho-hum LOL
I had Alcons put on my 22B about a year and a half and 12,000 miles (1000 on track) ago. No problems. I did fit braided hoses and some higher spec brake fluid too. I liked em so much that I bought a second set to go on the MY01 we got this year.
When the discs do finally go I may go to Hispec and see what they can do in the way of seperate disc and bell(rumour has it they can even fit the AP disc), but only cos I'd like to experiment.
However! If I was bothered about resale I'd definitely go for AP. When u come to sell put the old 4 pots back on and sell the AP's seperately. Alcons have had too much bad press around here to be able to get a decent price second hand.
In terms of performance I don't believe there is anything in braking ability, and IMHO the Alcons have a better feel and feedback than the AP 6 pots, which is why I got the second set.
Ta
Chuck

Hoppy

LOL Fizz.

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

Simo , The last time I spoke to you I told you the only way I could copy the Alcon discs is using AP discs and making my own bells to make them a exact copy , I do not use a 330mmx28mm discs , all mine are 30mm or 32mm thick , I sent you an email giving you details and prices over christmas .

To recap I can offer the following ,Using genuine AP racing discs , Prices below are for discs and bells , you will only need to replace the AP discs when they need relacing.

330mm x 28 mm 24 vane discs and bells for £600 a pair

330mm x 28mm 48 vane discs and bells for £700 a pair

330mm x 28mm disc 24 vane £200 each

330mm x 28mm 48 vane discs £250 each

All these prices include VAT , I can get a better deal on the discs with a group buy of five pairs.
Hope this helps , Ian

simo

Ian

Glad your still around Never got your mail or I would not have posted my comments re your lack of service/interest, where did you mail to? I mailed you 3 weeks ago asking why you had not replyed, why did you not mail back then? The last I heard from you was that you were getting all the info together that you have now posted - sorry to late now, gone down the other route with a direct size equivalent but thanks for clearing it up.


simon


[Edited by simo - 2/6/2002 8:28:16 PM]

[Edited by simo - 2/6/2002 8:32:35 PM]

russell hayward

I can get aluminium bells for the Alcons and they will take the AP discs.

Should have a price tomorrow .

I also believe there are one or two people using this set up at the moment, but don't know who.

Local supplier too.

Email me off line if you want more details

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Russell
Many Thanks
However if I do go anywhere with this it will be the HiSpec kit I will be getting now.
Cheers
Beastie

Fat Boy

On my second set of Alcons, due to warping. Brakes look great , work very well, very progressive , until they warp- which they will, IMO. I know of someone on his 4th set.

I am now looking at retaining the calipers and using an APR 330m disc instead, but probably only after the warranty runs out..

Had no hassle from the dealer, but they did say that IM were a bit snotty, demanding to know how I drove the car. I said "enthusiastically, you know , in the manner in which the car was designed for/ sold to me as".

While they are unwarped they work every bit as well as APR, so it basically comes down to do you want to stick with the 3 yr 60k warranty or not.

Hoppy

Martin's post is spot on IMHO.

The big Alcons are very good brakes and you would have to be a mad driver to warp them on the road, or live at the top of an Alpine pass or something! However, you can warp them (integral iron bell is the main reason), they are heavy (iron bell again), expensive to replace etc.

So, if you're spending this much cash one of the AP Racing kits seems like a no brainer to me. Good resale value, too, when it's time to change cars.

Summary: Ultimately, the key to consistent, repetitive high perfromance braking is the discs. APR make the best discs. Full stop. APR/Brembo/Alcon calipers are all excellent. Choice of pads up to you, depending on the apllication. Stick to top brands like Ferodo, Pagid, Mintex, Performance Friction.

Hope this helps. Just what Martin said, really.

Richard.

Edited to add make sure you get a 'real' APR kit with 48-vane 28mm discs. Also, while snooping round the Prodrive stand at the recent Autosport show, all the Prodrive prepped cars had either APR brakes, or Brembos...

[Edited by Hoppy - 2/4/2002 4:04:18 PM]

Fizz

iTrader: (1)

See my car on

http://www.hughes74.freeserve.co.uk/html/my_my01.html
and
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...threadid=68623

I have Hi-spec brakes and they use AP discs and EBC pads.... Cheaper and smaller/lighter calipers for the same piston size

see -

http://www.hispecbigbrakes.co.uk/

Edited because of picky g1t below I got them the wrong way round ok!!!



[Edited by Fizz - 2/5/2002 5:56:45 PM]

Hoppy

Fizz, what you on about, mate? Your car does not have 'EBC discs' as I know them, and what exactly are 'standard AP pads' bearing in mind that AP Racing don't make pads?

Hi-Spec calipers may be very good and very good value (I don't know, but am not going to argue) but until they're fitted to most F1 cars I will consider AP Racing to know best. And if you want to argue brake performance, let's start with the discs, please. You can have ten pistons is you like, but if the discs aren't up to it, then whole system will be flawed.

Best regards,

Richard.

PS Edited to add - glad to hear that Alcon are thinking of a separate disc/bell set up. Then they might have brakes worthy of the Prodrive label.

[Edited by Hoppy - 2/5/2002 12:31:43 AM]

simo

Yes they do.

I am on my 2nd set of discs & these have warped as well on hard road use. Prodrive / Subaru are trying to renage on their warrenty saying that discs have been abused and the dealers are having major problems getting warrenty claims accepted

I have a set of manufactured bells / discs being shipped hopefully from the US this week to arrive & be fitted on my car at the end of next week. I tried to get a set made through Godspeed but gave up as Ian never bothered to return calls or emails and he still has a pattern alcon disk that he has not returned

I spoke with Paul @ TSL Motorsport and between us we have sorted out a set sourced by TSL from www.thebrakeman.com

I am sure that the seperate bell / disc set up along with ds2500 pads will be the solution to all alcon warping problems and the replacement costs will be a lot cheaper than alcons £700 + vat.Also, discs can then be replaced when the wear out rather than the whole shooting match.

Hopefully within 2 weeks I will have an Alcon / TSL brake kit that does what it should have done in the 1st place

I'll post results as soon as I have them

cheers simon

ps I have no tie to TSL or the brake man, just a satisfield TSL customer (even though trouser has never made me a coffee )



[Edited by simo - 2/6/2002 1:38:31 PM]

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Corner
Well ive just spoken with AWD motorspsort. Non committal on the Alcons but they do offer a Bremsport kit with 330mm discs and bells for 900quid+vat.
Ive also found an AP 6 pot kit for 1600quid inc vat.
I have now cancelled the Alcons
Brakes will need to wait.
Beastie

Now spoke with HiSpec, extremely tempted by the 335mm monster kit but 4 weeks delivery so no rush for me.




[Edited by Beastie - 2/6/2002 4:48:06 PM]