MartinM

OK I'll keep this short as poss...

Can get 330mm Alcons with DS2000 and braided lines fitted for £1540 (inc.) by local dealer. 3 yr warranty, its the 'recommended upgrade but the disc/bells are one piece and if you have to pay for replacements they're £690 + VAT

Can get 330mm AP 4 pots (with DS2500, braided lines, DOT 5.1 fluid) fitted for £1687 at TSL. The discs and bells are separate and replacement discs are £220 + VAT. The AP kit is *allegedly* 'just far superior - night and day etc' (according to Trouser at TSL)

Which one would you go for?

...or if anyone has a set of AP or Alcons on 330mm discs for sale s/h, let me know

Danny Fisher

Martin, look back though the last two months worth of posts. This is covered almost weekly.

Alcon if warranty is an issue!

AP will work out cheaper in the long run, replacing discs, pads, etc.

Dan

Mike Tuckwood

We are having a limited period "sale" of genuine AP Racing brake kits.
Purchase only prices are:

AP Racing 6 Pot kit £1,527.50 inc VAT
AP Racing 4 pot kits £1,351.25 inc VAT

Fitting is £58.75 extra.

AP Racing G8 48 vane discs are circa £170.00 + VAT each as well, don't go for a kit with "cheaper" (usually less vanes) discs.

Also, don't expect Alcons to be problem free on the warranty front.... If you use them as they should be used, the Alcons will EAT discs! I know a couple of people who are having problems getting warranty issues honoured on the Alcon kits.



Mike.


[Edited by Mike Tuckwood - 20/11/2001 15:04:24]

chuckster

'If you use them as they should be used'
Please explain Mike, I can't figure where I am going wrong. I seem to be able to brake as late as or later than the next guy and yet my discs have lasted ages!
cough*bollox*cough @ the AP dealer
Chuck
PS agree alcons discs are expensive, but they should last a long time if they are bedded in correctly and cooled down correctly after blasts/tracking.

Mike Tuckwood

Hehe, Chuck. You drive like a girl...... your discs will outlast the rest of the car.

[Edited by Mike Tuckwood - 20/11/2001 17:40:24]

MartinM

Hey, I'm quite enjoying this 'reverse auction'

..any more bidders want to give me a cheaper quote

kryten

Martin, I'll have the Alcons off my RB5 for sale soon.

With DS2000 pads plus a set of DS3000 for track use....

Mail me if you're interested.

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Martin,

My new discs that were replaced under warranty due to the fitment of DS3000 pads as Std. Have now covered around 7,000 miles with no descernable wear at all. I know i've not done any track days but couldn't be accused of driving like a girl, remember Goodwood !
The problem with the brake upgrade is everyone has their own opinion and they believe this to be correct. Some are just biased for obvious reasons. In the end you'll have to make your own mind up. Sure you won't be disapionted either way.

Steve.

Mac's Power

I had both Alcons and AP 6 pots. I know I'm not comparing like with like but for me it's AP all the way. Although they are fond of pads!

Paul.

MartinM

...sorted, at last

330mm x 32mm G8 48 vane AP discs and bells, 5200 calipers with EBC Greenstuff, braided hoses all round and DOT 5.1 fluid due to be fitted mid-December

Thanx all 4 your advice

[Edited by MartinM - 11/21/2001 10:50:40 PM]

Plantie

Martin for £1480 you can get the Alcons fitted with braided hoses from a Subaru Garage!

Warrenty is awesome aswell!! (trust me I know)

Mail me if you haven't purchased the above yet and your interested...

MartinM

Thanks for your post, Plantie, but the APs are ordered.

I believe I'm gonna get the dogs danglies with all that hi-spec AP kit - but I know I'm passing up the opportunity for a 3 yr (probably no quibble) guarantee, which has almost (literally!) kept me awake at night.

For general interest to Scoobynetters, I'll give a bit more background...

I've tended to believe all the after-market suppliers (SM, SS and TSL, each of whom I have spoken to at length - but they of course have a hidden agenda) that I will be getting:
- fundamentally better design - separate discs (lightly) bolted to alloy bells. Each bolt is only torqued up to 10lb/ft (which I was amazed at) allowing a small (well v.small probably!) ability for the disc to expand without having to expand the bell as well - which reduces the likelihood of warping. No other hi-performance brakes have a 1 piece disc/bell construction
- superior performance - I admit I don't quite understand why, but I think its in terms of the bells allowing the discs to cool quicker between applications, and the increased 'vaning' of the AP discs. And in simple terms, cooler discs = better braking and = less chance to warp
- access to significantly cheaper pads (£50-£75 for the good ones, £100-£130 for the extreme track versions - compared with around £150 for 'std' DS2000 from Subaru)
- cheaper disks (if I *have* to end up buying them) - £340 + VAT vs. £690 + VAT for the Alcons

There are also some stories around (not easy to corroborate of course) that:
- Subaru regret giving a 3 yr warranty on the Alcons, 'cos the number of disc replacements they're having to do is costing them £££££s
- There is at least one person who's has had about multiple sets of replacement Alcon discs (4?) and, allegedly, the next set are coming with no further warranty

My normal view is that if you compare something with a 1 yr warranty vs something that does the same thing with a 3 yr warranty, the latter will be 'better', 'cos the supplier is not woriried about warranty claim costs. This seems on my investigation to not be *obviously* true in this case.

..and OK, I know the Alcons will have the extra 2 yrs of warranty, but its a load of hassle getting discs replaced under warranty regularly rather than not having to get them replaced at all.

Or have I got all this completely wrong???? Plse let me know - its only a £100 deposit I'd lose if I back out after all this donkey work after all

Martin
BTW - the AP set up, as described, will be £1430 (inc VAT and fitting), so it's still a tad cheaper than the Alcons too

Stef

Just don't go near a track with EBC Greenstuff in. They'll last a couple of hours tops.

Stef.

Steve vRS

EBC Green Stuff lasting a couple of hours!!

They lasted about 1 hour with me and that was in my lighter, slower Puma!!

Good for the road though.

Steve

Hoppy

Martin, why are you going for 32mm APR discs? Official APR kit contains 28mm discs which suggests the thicker ones will only be heavier for no real benefit. Just a thought. Also check that they don't give you any clearance problems (depending on your wheels).

DS2000 are excellent road pads, and the new DS2500 highly rated if you fancy the odd track day, too. They last well, so are not as expensive as you might think.

Enjoy

Richard.

ric

I have a set of Alcons for sale with brand new discs.

Contact me when interested......a lot cheaper than a new set........only driven 5000miles.

ric
richimu@datacomm.ch

Markus

Stef,
what pads you running in your setup?

bob

Martin says: Can get 330mm Alcons with DS2000 and braided lines fitted for £1540 (inc.)
End

Hi Martin our dealer is having you on, Nozzer and I paid £1300 all in.
BTW I sold my Alcon's for £500. With new disks due to the DS3000 pads. The performance of the brakes did go down with the DS2000 pads.
You will get no problems with the AP kit and Mike's deal looks good.

wilf

MartinM,

Have you decided yet?

I've gone a bit quiet on the brakes front as I am considering another car purchase so that we dont have to use the P1 so much in the week.

Let us know how you get on.

MartinM

Bob - our dealer is always having me on . I must look like the sucker I probably am

Wilf - AP stuff is ordered & awaiting delivery. Due to be fitted 17 Dec

See you both at the Star on Sunday????

MartinM

So, it's post 17 December...

AP 4 pots, Greenstuff pads, 330mm x 28mm discs, braided hoses all round and DOT 5.1 fluid fitted at Scoobymania on Monday - thanks to Sean (sp?), Mike and Jason btw, and Hi to Ian (you were dead right!!!).

Initial reactions are just !! Was careful with the bedding in (a dozen stops in reasonably quick succession from 70mph-30mph (private road)) - and only a fraction worried when I first stopped completely and the whole front end of the car disappeared in a cloud of smoke (grease, protective coatings etc etc, I presume)

...the loony tunes acceleration of the P1 is now matched by the loony tunes braking ability . Mike said it's 'night and day' between these and the standard ones, and I completely agree. It's just what the car needs. They're even fantastic from dead cold.

It's just gotta be the best first upgrade to have on an Impreza - I was worried that they wouldn't be much different to standard, but I'm not worried now.

Even the wife said "we need full harnesses now we've got these brakes" - as she was acting like a rag doll when I showed her half what they can do

'Wilf' - if you see this, drop in any time (we're the tenth house on the left, double white garage doors) and I'll (safely!) take you out - you'll be amazed.

BTW, they ended up over £300 cheaper than the best dealer price I could get for Alcons with equivalent hoses, fluid and fitting, so I'm happy on that front too!!!

MartinM

Oops, forgot the picture...the slightly strange colour on the disc is the result of just having washed the car

kryten

Nice Big brakes make far more difference (IMHO) than power upgrades.

However:
Think carefully! If I'd had a full harness when I rolled the RB5 (no roll cage) my head/neck/body probably wouldn't have been able to avoid the collapsed roof quite so much.

Dave T-S

Martin

Errr, who told you to bed new AP discs/pads in like that??!!

The instruction leaflet that came with my AP 6 pots described a slightly different procedure....

MartinM

Kryten
Don't worry - I've no intention of harnesses, but I thought her initial reaction was interesting

Dave
A combination of Mike at SM and http://www.apracing.com/roadcar/brakekit/bedding.htm

<For the first 10 miles, light braking from 50/60 mph down to 30 mph if possible in blocks of 5. Do not attempt any high-speed stops down to zero at this point, as only the faces will heat up with the mass remaining cool along with the mounting area.> Done

<For the next 100 miles increase the braking pressures similar to stopping in traffic, again avoiding if possible full stops from above 70 mph. By now the area around the mounting bolts should be a light blue temper colour. This is a good indication that the correct heat soak has been achieved. > Done and blue cover observed

<For the next 100 miles gradually increase the braking effort after this full power stops can be used. The disc should now be an even dark to light blue temper colour, depending on the pad type and the braking effort being used during the process. This process must be completed before any race circuit use.> These were the 70-30 stops I mentioned - and they were fairly gentle..not the emergency stop type. Discs are definitely the right colour now.

The key thing seems to be getting the heat in to the whole disk, which I don't believe I'd done until the 70-30 stops (hence the smoke, and maybe the front of the car disappearing in the smoke was a bit of an exaggeration!) Mike said it was a bit like "cooking a chicken (TM)" - intense heat from the start just burns the outside, not enough heat just doesn't cook it however long you do it for. You need the right balance

I hope I've not "cooked them" wrong

wilf

MartinM,

Glad your happy with the conversion . I was going to send you an email about the hillclimb and ask if the brakes had been done yet.

Idea of a demonstration sounds great . Are you in on Saturday as I might pop round with my motor so we can run a comparison? I'll make sure I havent eaten just before I turn up !

Dave T-S

Martin
That's ok then - you only posted the abbreviated version initially!

MartinM

Wilf - you will have mail on your work address

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Martin,

Sounds like you're all equiped for the next Exmoor ?

Steve.

wilf

SteveB,

Is that an idea for the next meet?

Havent seen you posting for a while - been on hols? Charlotte still hasnt forgiven you for pointing out the stonechip on our bonnet!

Hopefully catch up with you soon.

MartinM,

Am sending you an email to your work.