dc2

Evening all!

Had my Integra for 3 years now, thinking about a change. High on the list is an STi, or something similar...and I know very little about all the variants, save the Spec-C is supposed to be the best since the P1, albeit very hardcore. Oh, and the Type-25 has a good rep too.

So I thought I'd ask the experts!
(Oh - I did try a search, but didn't get very far...probably me being crap)

Just to give you a bit more to go on:-
- I'm looking for a new-ish car (ideally under 2y.o., definitely under 3y.o.).

- It'll be a daily driver, so ride-quality no worse than the ITR please, and semi-sensible running costs (it's a Scoob, I've an idea what I'll be hit with).

- I'm not fussed about ultimate power - the ITR has 176bhp/tonne and is JUST quick enough for me currently. A bit more would be nice (say 260-280bhp in a 1.4t car), but I don't care about "ludicrous speed".

- I'm more interested in the poise, handling and adjustability of the car, and especially in the feedback and interactivity - test-drove a CTR (electric PAS!) and hated the lack of steering feel.

- Oh, I also like the sharp turn-in and the alert feel of the ITR. I'm aware that Scooby's don't have such turn-in, but was wondering if any were better than others? (Heard of new AEM suspension arms that cure this...are they proven, and are they expensive?)


So which Scooby should I try? There might be a '54 STi available just outside my price range, but that's a standard car (Vers-8, I think), and an ex-demo - plus have heard the stock-versions of newer Scoob's have lost a bit of 'edge'. Will try and test-drive this anyway, just to benchmark it.


Finally, any other pointers about what to expect, what to look for, what options are worth it and what are just "bling"?

Thanks very much guys,

Martin

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi Martin,

Hmmm, you're spoilt for choice really mate. Personally, if you want a warranty, no hassle with remapping for UK fuel or fiddling with Octane booster etc.. I'd be inclined to go for an UK 03Sti PPP (prodrive performance pack). Very quick, great spread of torque which will be a revelation after the ITR and good handling with a bias towards understeer. If you wanted to sharpen it up even further -and bring the back end into play more- you could do so inexpensively by taking the car to somwhere like Powerstation and getting the uprated adjustable ARB and -IIRC- solid droplinks.

If you're not too bothered about a warranty and want some tuning potential, then go for a JDM market Sti. They are more powerful than the UK cars as std and have lots of scope for tuning! You'll really want one that has been in the Uk all its life though, and preferably mapped for UK fuel from the outset. Such cars are sold by Litchfield imports. If it's on a jap fuel map, the prev owner MUST have used octane booster and SUL otherwise the engine will have been detting.

If you don't want that hassle, but would still like one you can tune, go for a UK Sti without PPP will still be a revelation next to the ITR mainly cause of it's monster mid range. You can then decat it and get Ecutek 3 by someone like Bob Rawle. Hey presto, over 300bhp and similar lbs ft torque. All for less than the cost of the Prodrive pack.

If you don't mind extreme, you could see if you could source a used Spec-C though not sure about their second hand values, may still be above the 20k mark.

Have fun!!

All the best

NS04

The Incredible Hulk

Martin,

Drop me a PM matey as I did the ITR to scooby change roughly 6 months ago, though my budget was less than yours, I have an 01 WRX.

Kevin

virgin

New scooby is spot on

just one mod road missed

Std Uk STi 03 as New scoob said, then take it to TSL and for the 333 pack, thats 333 torq and bhp, this is a well respected upgrade for resonable money, no internals are messed with, reliable modification

I reckon this could be done for 20k, the cars milage 20 thou miles or so

dc2

Cheers guys.

NS04 - thanks for that, I'd been reading about bump- and under-steer issues on here. Am wondering on the warranty implications there though...and don't want to wait ~2yrs before making the changes if they're as good as the rep.

Am likely to go UK route simply to ease insurance, servicing etc. But that still leaves WR1's, UK-300s, Type-UK's (what are these? Is this just the Vers-8 for the UKDM?), and possibly others I've never heard of.

Modifications to engine can wait - I'm not interested in massive straight-line speed, I want something I can hustle down a B-road as well as round a track, something I can really get my driving teeth into. What are your thoughts?


Oh - Type R's and Type RA's...are these JDM only? And how user-friendly are they? 'cause I've been known to be a little ham-fisted at the wheel!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

To be honest I think the std will be more than adequate on an Sti for you at first esp on the road. It has a front diff (like your ITR) also one in the middle and rear. Stay on the power and it'll get you around corner at quite a startling pace. Just remember that 4wd is not a idiot proof set up: every car has limits, these cars just have their limits set higher. It's set up to be forgiving and not throw you into a hedge if you make a mess of a corner. When you start adding things like stiffer ARBs etc, you bring the rear end into play more, which erodes your safety margin should you get it wrong.

Insurance not as bad for JDMs as in days of yore (depends on your age though and NCB) If under 30, you'll struggle! UK300 is a limited edition WRX with PPP about 240 bhp. I'd go for the more aggressive Sti myself. WRI is a special edition Sti fettled by prodrive about 310bhp Very good, but pricey, more bang for buck elsewhere. Type UK is just the name given to all UK Sti's these days!

If comfort/refinement is more imp than performance get a WRX and PPP it. More than fast enough. SUPERB all rounder. If you want more performance and a more aggressive set up (perfectly useable everyday though) go for the STi.

Yes they are and they are less user friendly than regular scoobies. e.g. no abs on the type RA! Also much rawer, less sound deadening, shorter gearing! Amazing acceleration and ability in the twisties, but ake commitment to live with on an everyday basis!

Sounds like the WRX Sti Type UK with PPP would be the likely candidate for you at the moment.

Do check out the insurance and running costs though!!! VERY important!

Scooby ownership means empty wallets for most of us!!

dc2

Thanks again...much as I'd thought. (Hey, there's less to this Scooby business than you guys let on - I'll be an expert yet!!!)

STi it is then...although a Type-R is tempting (ABS is a must really) - I've got short gearing (~4,500 at 85mph), no soundproofing and aggressive suspension/steering already!!!...and then at least I can say to myself I still have a Type R!!!
But maybe once I've worked out how not to kill myself in an STi...

furrydice79

put an extra grand on the 20k and go for a brand new st from alliance, that what i did and it rocks...same warranty as uk spec and the only real dif is no tracker or badge

corradoboy

Or wait while november, and if the rumoured 2.5 litre comes out, watch 2nd hand values fall through the floor.

If I had 20k to play with it would be either a new EU STi (add another 2k), a 2nd hand UK 05 as they should now be starting to drop onto the market now with over 2yr warranty left, a 2nd hand SpecC (dependant on what they're going for) or as I said earlier, save a few months longer and be amongst the 1st to get a 2.5.

Deep Singh

If you want real steering feel, handling balance and adjustabilty then you really want a Spec C or derivative. I had a 01 STi and it had none of these, 4wd grip yes but nothing to make it 'fun'.
If you want to spend less money, then a STi5ish Type R, has adjustabilty but again understeers and steering feel is 'adequate'

C'ant comment on the STi05 though as have never driven it

dc2

Right, back from a day's test-driving:-

First drive, Clio 182 (the cheap option for a bit): Beautiful steering, chassis balance, and adjustability. Like a mini-teg, without the VTEC. Mid-range strong, but runs out after about 6,200. Not quite as ultimately quick as the 'teg (close real-world), driving position mediocre, and the demonstrator at 6,800miles had a rear damper pissing fluid out!!! Ah, French build quality!!!

Second: STi - Dec 04 pre-reg'd demonstrator, 750 miles, £22k! Oh, this is SOOO tempting. Above my budget, but an almost-new, new-looking 04-STi at £5k below list. Looks the mutts...maybe a bit "loud", BUT...(!!!). Get in - driving position great, seat very good, pedals not offset. Gearstick short and tight but very close together - can see me snatching 3rd instead of 5th!
Driving it...flat-4 burble is nice at idle, but at revs there seems to be something like transmission whine over the top? What is this? Steering a bit light but some feedback...not as bad as I'd feared, can live with it quite happily. Engine sluggish below 2,500, really lights up at just shy of 4,000 (MONSTER shove), fading after 6,250. Very different delivery to the ITR...maybe that's good, need a change. Ride very composed, but lots of grip - didn't find the limits, not sure I'd dare.
And I guess that's my one worry - it is SO effing capable, to get a reaction from the car I'd be doing silly-speeds...which I'm not about to do on a public road. Am I going to get bored??? (I can and do provoke the ITR almost daily wet and dry just to feel it slide around, catch it, play again!)
Oh - and insurance is nearly twice all the other options! With a bigger excess (NU want £620! Next worst is Focus RS with £370! Premiums £1,350 vs £740)

Finally: RX8 - I thought this was going to be a bit of a wildcard - heard tales of lacklustre engine and the 'leccy PAS. But it goes better than you'd think. Driving position as good, and lower...just the gearstick about 2in too far back. Pedals offset right though, but I didn't notice it once I was underway. Don't know if it would be a problem long-distance.
Engine gets a good head of steam around 4,500, pulls linear and strong through to 8,500 - very good for overtaking. Noise a bit hoover-ish though - would need sports exhaust! Chassis twitchier than the Scoob...but I think I was pushing harder. Definitely need the ESP on that, even in the dry if you're being a bit of an **** (Who, me?!?)...but surprisingly that made it feel more alive. Steering was electric and not very feelsome, but well-weighted (makes a change)...I guess I could live with that. Liked it more than I expected to...and now I'm confused!

...and still a Focus RS to test-drive!!!


Money-wise, the RX8 is too much new (and 5-month wait)...but residuals are very strong at the moment because of that wait...year-old ones are still £18-19k. And I'm not sure I could take it on-track (I suppose I could...). 20mpg cancels out the heavy Scooby insurance, as regards running-costs. So financially pretty even, but very different cars on the road.

So there we go...long post, hope you've got this far.

Any further thoughts?

Cheers,

M.

GC8

Dont buy the demonstartor for heaven's sake!

Simon

corradoboy

Especially when you could get an EU 05 for the same money with full 3yr warranty. All you don't get is the Subaru Assist (breakdown), alarm, locking nuts and some UK badges I guess you gave the demonstrator some, as has everyone else who had a go in it; and as you state it only has 750 miles on the clock it should still be on running in oil

PS. Try and get along to a meet somewhere and blag a ride in an STi with over 15k on the clock. The engines really loosen up and begin to fly after a while

dc2

I take it ex-demo's aren't a good bet then??? Even at that price??? What's the likely effect?

I did give it some, but the dealer (principal) asked me not to take it over 6k, so I shifted at between 6 and 6,2 mainly...whether everyone else has been so accomodating, I don't know.

I've only got 1-week to decide on the ex-demo as the guy is retiring like now, and whatever's left is going to auction!


EU-05's - could someone send me a link to a reputable importer...I may need to make a call or two next week.

Oh, and is there any spec difference between the '04 and '05, either engine, suspension, toys...


Thanks for all the help guys, it's appreciated (and when I finally get to a Scoob meet I feel I may owe a few pints!!!)

corradoboy

Some quite major differences between 04 and 05. The DCCD-A being the major one, along with a full revision of the suspension including a (slightly) longer wheelbase, wider rear track and enlarged bearings (hence bigger hubs). I believe the PPP is closer to the WR1 spec too. Also come fitted with Bridgestone RE070 tyres The interior is a little nicer too 2 new colours, crystal grey and white

As for importers, plenty to choose from and quite a few people on here have been down this route recently. I'd recommend using search or opening a new thread specifically for this info. For JDM's there's none better than Litchfield though.

dc2

Cheers CB!

Some info gathering to be done tomorrow, then I'm going to have to be VERY cheeky at work and make some calls...

Hmm...sweet dreams tonight methinks!



PS - one slight flaw in this cunning plan...as we're talking grey's here, the 350Z suddenly hones into my price range...nowhere near as practical, but there's only me and Becs 99% of the time, so...!!! Oh ****, another test-drive!

dc2

Went back, had another look, and another quick drive.

Have decided I'm not entirely convinced by the power delivery - lot of low-down lag, followed by massive mid-range then it tails off after 6k. Seems unnatural. And having tested the roads we were on when back in my ITR, it's not subtantially quicker, point-to-point, and I'd have expected it to be.

The big thing though is I'm very unconvinced by insurance (normal STi is very bad, PPP is scary!), depreciation and running costs...esp. depreciation.

It's a nice car, and my mate who came with me (complete rally-hound, has been for years!!!) is smitten (I think there's an outside chance he'll take it now I'm not!)...but I've decided it's not "me", and it's a bit too much £££ at the moment.

Thanks for all the advice, sorry if it now seems wasted.

M.

The Incredible Hulk

M,

Not wasted, just someone opening their eyes before buying and looking at the bigger picture of Subaru ownership - its expensive. The PPP would sort out the tailing off but ultimately coming from a car the easily revs to over 8k and doesn't get into its power band until after 6k everything else is going to struggle at the top end. I'd try and exige if I were you, it might give you what you're really looking for - ITR up a notch.

Kevin