SDB

Hi All

I am looking at buying a Lutos Esprit. I'm estimating I could spend around 20K so I know it's not going to be a new one. Guess around K reg?

I have driven one at MIRA on the limit so I am fully conversant with the handling etc but have no idea about what models are best or how reliable they are etc?

I would be using it as a main car (mostly local stuff and a 100 mile round trip every couple of days).

Anyone have any experience?

The main things I would be grateful to find out are:-
1) What models are fastest / best?
2) What should I be able to get for up to 20K
3) Reliability probs, etc?

Many thanks in advance,

Simon

Missing Details

Simon

Call Bell & Colvill (Subaru/Lotus/SAAB etc dealer) on 01483 281000.
Even if you dont want to buy from a dealer, if you sound interested on the phone then their Lotus sales guys should tell you all you need to know.....

Daddy.

Doc

Reliability will almost certainly be a problem with an Esprit.
Remember Lotus stands for

Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious.

Although to be fair I think this only applies to their old models.

I have a friend with an Elise and its reliability has been excellent.

Nightmare

This could be quite a long post...... I think Mr Rainbird also has one so will undoubtedly send an essay your way too!!

1) Yes you should buy one cos they're great. They are effortlessly rapid, look fantastic, and are generally great fun.

The model line up goes something like this...

NA,Turbo, Turbo SE, S4, S4s, GT3, V8 etc (but thats a little out of price range...)

The NA is too slow. The turbo is very quick and very reliable by all accounts. Doc is still subscribing to the 'Eclat, Elite, old Elan troubles' - any new shape esprit (86 onwards)will be just as reliable as any other sports car. BUT - when something does go wrong...it is NOT cheap

The Turbo SE is faster still - but I would be a little cautious if its an every day car. Yes it is quicker than the stock turbo (but we're only talking tenths here) and the engine is constantly under more stress (due to its 'optimized' nature) and hence more likely to go wrong.

Your choice with the money you have is either a late turbo/ turbo SE or an early S4. The things on mine which are irritating (its an 89) - no remote central locking (doubt thats on any till really new ones) - the worlds crappest ever windscreen wipers (but liveable with) - reversing is a bitch! but thats about it. Its pretty much my everyday car (except in winter) - and if you're going to buy one I would strongly suggest that you get one which has been used most days, as those ' weekend/track day' only ones tend to have significantly more problems...

Ive owned mine for just over 2 years now and the following things have happened..

1) Services! cheapest ever £186, most expensive £1,320
2) Tyres are £250 each from a main dealer (though I have some friends in the trade and get em rather a lot cheaper)
3) Exhaust manifold went - £800
4) Coolant sensor went - free! (nice garage)

and thats actually all. The floor mats need to be replaced on the drivers side, but proper ones are 70 quid (which I thinks a bloody con)

Main dealer cars are safer in the long run (got mine from Storm in Leics - very nice people) but you will pay more (about 2 grand probably).

I cant actually be bothered to type any more now - but am more than happy to answer any other questions you have!

cheers
Night

SDB

Thanks guys

Nightmare, thanks for all the info!
I think I may start looking for an S4. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

I would guess that it will feel (and probably be) a bit quicker than my WRX but what about turbo lag?

Also, I am 6ft tall with pretty long legs. Is this going to be a problem? I have heard that leg room is in short supply. I can't remember how crampt the one I drove at MIRA was. I was just so amazed at how enjoyable the car was to drive. If you could be arsed to look back at some of my previous posts, you will see that I mentioned it a few times. It was truly the most enjoyable cars I have ever driven on the limit (and that puts it above an extremely long and well distinguished selection of vehicles!). This one was a V8 though. Is an S4 likely to be completely different?

thanks again

Simon

Nightmare

Simon,

There is actually slightly more room in the earlier cars than later ones, as the airbag and alterable steering wheel seems to take up too much room. Im 6'1", 33 inside leg, and theres still a good inch between me and the roof - which I have all the way back! Its the most comfortable of my cars to drive (a lot more so than the scoob)- though not as easy to get into! I have a removable glass roof, which may give a little extra headroom.

Maybe unimportant, but the stereo in these is just brilliant - as all the speakers are either just in front of you, or just behind your ear - sound quality is excellent!

Friend has a WRX and thinks the esprit feels a lot quicker - turbo lag is something you get used to - it only ever really exists when pulling away as you just get used to keeping it spinning all other times. On the road its not worth worrying about. Saying that - the difference between it and V8 feel will be that this is a single, very high compression turbo (biggest in any prod car I think) and the power delivery is huge. Consequently, not wise to put foot down in tight bend unless you really want to spin madly (though I guess you prolly know that already )

With regards to actually driving and handling - the differences are almost nothing. There have been a couple of revisions to the set-up, but no-one really agrees on whether they're an improvement or not (just read reviews of Sport 350 and you'll see what I mean!)

It is generally agreed that the 4 pots are a bit more forgiving than the V8's - you can get it wrong with much more style and chance of rescue!

Only downside - the V8 is like driving an explosion I think - the S4 ISNT as fast, and will only be faster then the WRX above about 50 mph - though round a track you should kick butt with practice!

keep questions coming - its about the first time I feel I actually know something

Mike Rainbird

Dear Simom,
I'm sure you were expecting for me to contribute my 2 penneth worth, so here goes. If you can get an S4 over an SE do so, because when you put the two together, the SE looks really dated, but the S4 is the same shape as being built even today. You may be able to pick up a high mileage "K" for £20k, but expect to pay up to £5k more to get an exceptional low mileage example.

Things to look out for are the same as on any car, but on the Esprits the cambelt MUST be changed every 3 years or 36,000 miles (whichever comes first). However, be warned that this is a majorly expensive job (Lotus allow 9 hours!), which will cost £1k from the factory or £4-500 from a non-franchised specialist.

The car I have has been 100% reliable with only the oil temperature gauge failing (sender replaced under warranty). Build quality is best described as "adequate", but boy am I glad I didn't pay the new price (£47K) for one, or I would have been REALLY pee'd off! Back tyres have to be Goodyear Eagle GSAs (245s) which are specially made for the car (and NO other). They are £150+VAT each if you shop around (don't buy from a Lotus dealer!). The fronts are 215s, so you can put what you like on (I find the Goodyear Eagle F1s are good both wet and dry).

The brakes are absolutely crap beyond belief considering the performance of the car. If you can stretch yourself get an S4S which has monster APs and revised suspension / jazzy split rim wheels. Basically it is the limited edition Sport 300 without the engine bits. If not, expect to get through discs regularly if you are doing track days (they warp).

Have the car rolling roaded - it should produce 230-240bhp at the wheels. The turbo doesn't start making boost until 3000 rpm, but the car revs to over 7000, so this isn't too much of a problem to keep it "on the boil". The gearbox is very poor and the linkage is not precise when trying to drive normally, but seems to get better if driving hard.

If you buy privately, pay one of the Lotus mechanics at your nearby dealer £30 to come and look at the car with you.

Don't buy a red one unless your prepared to have people ask if it's a Ferrari (poor Lotus!). If I had a £1 for every time someone asked me if it was an Italian Stallion, I'd have, ooh about a £10 by now! (Heh ChrisP?!).

The very early cars had notorious engine failures (early 1980s) due to the cranks breaking, but this has been cured (part of the reason why it has an almost 8 litre sump, so oil changes are expensive!).

Any other information you require then just ask....
Best regards
Mike
PS. Although they have a claimed 165mph top speed, realistically this is more like 155mph, but because the weight is over the rear wheels, they do a stonking sub 5s 0-60mph! Enjoy.....!

Nightmare

agree with Mike - dont buy a red one!! Or a Mustard yellow, ghastly colour if you ask me (though Lotus sell more Esprits that colour than anything else...)

On the subject of the gear box - I would agree with Mike (again, need a lie down from the shock ) that it isnt very good - but gets better with 'practice' (this isnt like owning a normal car after all, and frankly all the better for it). My suggestion would be to go to dealers and test drive a lot of different ones, cos as with all 'small run production cars' they vary a fair bit - some gear boxes are a lot better than others.

Its dead cool for snaky spinny rear wheel take offs too!

MorayMackenzie

Simon,

When looking at used cars, always check for any service history and, of course, check the oil level and condition...

Good choice for a sunny day runabout, not replacing your WRX workhorse are you?

Moray

Nightmare

Mike....

1) I just realised I didnt finish my diablo info thing for you - major apologies, shall find time to finish tomorrow - also have the print outs from the dyno, so shall scan em in too..

2) Tyres.. I have Pirelli P6000s on all corners of my Esprit - would you suggest something else, and why? I like the pirellis cos its such a hard compound they dont wear out as fast!!

chrisp

Mike,
Nice to see you're back after the New Year and I like the new RSOC site I wonder where they got the idea for the software ??.

I bit of a coup as well as I was the first person to post in the general forum section .

I must say Mike's Esprit is a nice car though havent seen the cossie or the other motor yet .


Simon,

Does this mean the scooby's going ?


cheers

chrisp

SDB

Hi Chaps

Thanks for all the info!

Night
Thanks. You've sold it!! You're dead right about the track. Majority of Scoobies would fall behind, until you add more corners and some rain.

Mike
Thanks for the essay !! Seriously, thanks! Do you use yours regularly? What would you think to having it as a main car?

Moray
The less said about that, the better!!

Moray / Chris
I think the Scooby will have to go. I do love it but really yearn for the thrill of rear wheel drive again. I'm really genuinely not knocking the Scooby. I have had it for only 9 months, but this is still 2 months longer than any other car I've had. I get bored of cars so quickly, but this is truely the only car I have ever been satisfied with. It just had to end sooner or later.

I thought about getting a newer better Scoob, and may still do. But I fancy an Esprit. I will be doing less miles now as I have just finished a 6 month project in London and will be working from the office near home for the next year or so.

Am I making a big mistake?

Cheers

Simon

Topjimo

Don't they have Morris marina door handles, Oh no the new ones have Rover 214 door handles. (only joking)
Simon, just how will you get the rabbit to the vets in it ????

SDB

LOL

That was supposed to be a secret!

James, could you email me your phone number again please (I've lost it again!!), or give me a call in the morning mate. Cheers.


I don't suppose anyone has any other suggestions for cars?
Criteria:-
Fast
Stylish
Involving (driver involvement)
Fairly refined or at least enjoyable to be in
Not going to depreciate tooooo quickly as I will only have it for 6 months or so.
£25K Max.

Cheers All

Simon

Iain P

Simon, I work with a guy who's selling a lovely Silk Red S4 (latest shape), '92 (K),65k miles, Recent full service and new tyres, private plate, excellent condition. Wants £19950. Interested? I'll get him to send some pictures. Looks great!

Iain

Iain P

Simon, the colour is red but it's not the bright red - quite dark. Definately worth a look!

Walt

Simon,
Other cars to consider - Honda NSX, Porsche 911. Both cars meet your criteria of speed, style, driver involvement, and refinement (can't comment on depreciation, don't know about UK used car market). Probably not quite as quick as the charge-cooled Esprits in a straightline, the NSX and 911 (964 onwards) still have plenty of poke. Brakes on both cars are very good and better than Esprit binders (except the fantastic APs). Where the Esprit gets soundly trounced is in the engine/exhaust note competition. The Lotus lump sounds rather agricultural compared to the screaming VTEC Honda motor and the soulful air-cooled Porsche flat-six. Where the Lotus tops its two rivals is in steering feel and exotic styling. My best friend owned all three cars, first an Esprit SE, then a NSX and most recently a 911 (993) Cabriolet. If I had to choose, I would go for the NSX. It feels a lot more modern than the Esprit, turns almost as many heads, but is a lot easier to live with. You don't have to make any excuses for the car. It's a doddle to drive in city traffic, but when the road opens up it can also deliver the thrills. I would have bought one myself, but I needed extra seats and doors, so I bought an Evo instead.

Walt

SDB

Walt..

Many thanks for the info!!
It's weird, I was just thinking about an NSX this morning and also poke to my local porka dealer about a 911. Whoah!!!

I think I'm going to raise my budget a bit to 35K but I'm going to have to get some serious finance!!! oh well, you anly live once. (even if you pay for it for about 3 life times! )

Where am I likely to find an NSX to try?

Also any other suggestions with the new budget?

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Simon

MarkCSC

Simon

Instead of a 911 have you thought about the 968? You could probably get a good one for about 20k and with 240 bhp and a well balance chassis this could be the car for you.

Mark

robman

One of them, either the Espirit (my dream car as a kiddie) or the NSX has some of the switches from the Cavalier on the dash(may have been wiper switches or something)

I was gobsmacked, and drove home telling the missus that the Cav had switches from an Espirit/NSX (really can't remember which one it was - they were both yellow and shiny and next to each other and completely out of my price range, funnily enough)

Robin

ptholt

Don't get the nsx you'll be seriously disapointed.

If you insist on one, you can try drs cars in findon they sometimes have them (saw a nice white T bar there a few months ago).

I have a friend with nsx and skyline, he finds the nsx far to boring, no excitement, no seat of the pants stuff.

Why not a skyline ?

Mike Rainbird

Dear Simon,
You have certainly raised the stakes with £35k! If it was my money, I would buy a Caterham R500 (£30k) and then use the rest to buy a reasonable tin top (second-hand Mondeo 24v / BMW 325i E30 or something similar) to use as an everyday car. You will then have the ULTIMATE b-road / track car as well as having something to drive that you could leave anywhere and not worry about. However, be prepared to frighten yourself (and any passengers brave enough!) out of your wits, as they are not for the faint hearted!!!! (0-60 in 3.5s, 0-100 in under 9s - that's even faster than my car!).

In answer to your other question is that the trouble with using exotica as an every day car is the loss of money, as no-one wants a high mileage car (what-ever it is), but more so with so-called "super-cars". The Lotus is a toy for me and has only done 25,000 miles in it's almost 6 year ('94 "M") life. However, it always starts first time, is cheap to run (only £600 to insure with NU plus a £50 extension for track days for 30 year old with full NCB and advanced driving licence), does 25mpg if driven gently and looks good until you get close up, where the fibre glass 5mm shut lines look pants compared to the build of an NSX. The ride is brilliant, the steering really communicative (the V8 is even better in that respect) and the torque is only 20 lb ft off the V8 and with only 70bhp less the difference in overall performance with the S4 being a 100kg lighter car is really marginal (and NOT worth the extra £15-20k for a second hand one). If you were determined to get something rear wheel drive, then the NSX would be a good bet, it does everything extremely well, has proven reliability and high mileage ones hold their value more than an equivalent Esprit.

However, as said I would go the two car route and have something that really makes you work hard, but then allows you to step into something mundane to make you appreciate what you have and to allow you to drive calmly every now and then!

The Porsche is nice, but I hate leaving any cars that look remotely "sporting" anywhere, as there is always some ****-end who doesn't like the fact that you have worked your **** off to get a nice car and wants to make you regret it by kindly keying / kicking the car (another reason to go the two car route!). For some reason Porsche and Ferrari seems to bring out the worst case of the green-eyed monster in people, which is why I wouldn't ever have just one car (even if the second one was a banger - and NO I don't mean the Cossie! ).

Alternatively, buy an RS500 for £12k, spend £9k on getting a genuine 550bhp engine and spend the rest of your time learning to rear wheel stear at 120mph in the DRY! I'm not kidding - even in a straight line in fifth, put your foot down and look in the mirror to see yourself painting the road with your tyres! Will also enable you to do 200mph with the right gearing!

Anyway I'm digressing on to my favourite subject (Cossies!).

Keep it sideways, and I wait to see what you finally pick!
Best regards
Mike

PS Nightmare, I use the Goodyears because these were specifiaclly developed for the Esprit and NO other car. Accordingly the design is not a compromise to suit all cars with that tyre width, but to suit the exact handling characteristics of the Esprit....

MorayMackenzie

Simon,

How about an STI III (3) Type R with a few choice mods? You will get a car with my bucket's performance, shorter gearing (whackier acceleration (ish)) and the all important centre diff control (Rear wheel drive fun when you want it, 4wd when you need it!). And Scooby reliability (STI 3).

Go on, think about it!

Moray
(And is not a good word to start a sentance with, I know!)

SDB

Whoah!!!

Thanks again for all the info chaps.

Mike
Like your thinking re the Fun car and Mundano car. Not sure I want to go quite as much fun as the Caterham though!!
But I am definately going to take your advise re having a second cheapy to eat up the miles. But (re the RS500) it would be realising a LONG lived dream to buy one of these but I want something a bit more modern (if I'm completely honest).

Moray
It has been really tempting to just get a better Scooby, but in fairness, I want to try something else for a bit. I would be astounded if I don't get another one within the next couple of years though.

Mark
968.. Had a look, but not that keen to honest. I have never driven one so I probably shouldn't comment, but I think I would go for a 911 if I went for a Porka, but many thanks for the suggestion.

Ian
Thanks for the info, but I'm looking for something with less miles really.

Robman
YOUR RIGHT!!! I was shocked, it is the Esprit. They have cavalier indicator stalks and I think Renault heater controls.

ptholt
Cheers for the warning, I'm starting to go off the idea of an NSX anyway. Too many bad reports.

OK....
I've been to Kings Lotus Today and seen the most fabulous Esprit. There is a pic and info on it here -

Nightmare

okay - shall be totally honest here..

1) Its a V8 - min service bill = £350 every 6000 miles. Plus its nearly 40K
2) I personally wouldnt buy and ex-demonstrator (though I know that when its got a bit older it might have been one anyway and you wouldnt know) - mainly cos lots of people drive them, everyone thrashes them, and lots of people dont know how to drive something like that
3) Nice colour though
4) The V8 is FAST!!!!!!!!!!! as you already know
5) Fuel consumption is somewhat sucky on the 8 cylinder ones
6) Lotus' are generally very good depreciation wise AFTER a certain stage - which is about the 20K mark. This will lose another 10K in the next 2/3 years I would say - especially if you put a lot of miles on it...

It is totally your choice of course , but there are quite a few around, and I personally dont think a V8 matches your idea of every day use, short journeys and lack of landslide depreciation....

last thing - if you're thinking of buying around that period, you MUST make sure it has the new interior (which is a serious improvement over the one Mike and I have) - I would guess that this one doesnt, cos otherwise they'd say it did - unless all S regs do and I just dont know what Im talking about (for a change)

Nightmare

that all sounded a little negative didnt it?

oops

Seriously Simon - I think you'd be more than happy with any Esprit you get, cos they are genuinely wonderful to drive, and where it scores over the scoob is that 'ooh I own something that looks THAT cool' feeling. I just dont want you to feel, 6 months down the line, that you cant afford to run it, service it, or every time you drive it you're knocking big old wads of value off cos of mileage concerns....

I would honestly shop for something a little older, especially as your first 'how much shall I spend' was half what that costs....

cheers
Night

the titanium V8-GT on same site is a much better buy - (though obviously not as big a saving over list price) - and they look bloody COOL in that colour - I think what Im having my M250 in (if they make it )

ooh - and another thing - the M reg S4s, 14K miles, 27K looks nice too - another nice colour - and dead fast with the good brakes...

[This message has been edited by Nightmare (edited 06-01-2000).]

SDB

Knightmare

I'm fed up now.
You're right, it is the older interior, but I sat in a few with the new and old interior and was much more comfortable in this one. I felt more cramped in the others for some reason???? In the car's defence, it is still under manufacturers warantee (anyone know how good it is?) until August 2000, which I will then extend yearly for a grand a year.

I have changed my mind slightly from my first plan, (I know I have increased my budget somewhat) I will only be looking to do fun miles and a bit more. I will do the majority of my milage in a mundano or similar.

I spoke to my usual garage (RGS Motorsport) who I know very well and they said to try to keep away from high milers. I would rather spend more money and have peace of mind (with the warantee, etc.), but obviously wouldn't mind spending less!! The warantee thing has made me feel all nice and warm inside though!!

What do you think?

Cheers

Simon

chrisp

Hi Simon,

If you going upto 35k how about this list to chuck into the pot

LHD Ferrari 328/348
22B
TVR Cerbera/Chimp/Griff
Ultima (only the brave !!)

I have even seen a Lambo Jalpa with 26K on the clock for 28K

The worlds your lobster with that budget

disclaimer: never owned any cars listed above but wish too

cheers

chrisp

Nightmare

okay - I think its fair to say that low milers are generally better!! - but the warranty isnt that great.... The things which generally go are clutches (not covered) exhaust manifold (cos its a crap design) - not covered. However - fuel, oil and water pump are covered as are the turbos (and you dont want to know how much a new one of those is believe me!)

I think that the real advantage with buying from a main dealer is that you get their 'reputation' cover, more than anything else - which means hopefully they'll sort problems out in order to keep you business - but that again very much depends on the garage Im sure...

dont be downhearted - there arent as many esprits in the country as many other cars, but they do turn around. Just dont be in a rush would be my advice - I definitely bought mine too quickly and paid over the odds for it..... I dont want you to do the same thing.

with regards to interior room...the V8 I drove at Snetterton seemed really cramped, but another (same year) I test drove seemed much better...just weird, and shows why you should try lots!

cheers
Night

p.s. where did the K in my name come from

SDB

Chris
Thanks for the suggestions. I would love a Ferrari, it is one of the only car makes I have never driven and it p****s me off!
22B...??... Yeah, they are fabulous hooligan cars, but I don't think they are quite worth all the money (to me that is, personal preference I suppose). TVR worries me due to reliability horror stories. I'm not brave enough for the Ultima!! What is the reliability like on a Ferrari 348?

Night

'K'.. I have no idea where I dreamed that up from !!


OK..... What about this???