Broquet
08 March 2000, 09:40 AM
#3
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Hello everyone,
after being hugely interested in the broquet filter I emailed them to ask for some background reading.
They have sent me the number of a man who can answer my questions but I am a physisist not a chemist and feel my questions would not be useful. Can someone else who can make more sense of the answers please reply to this and I will forward the number.
If the majority want it then I will post it.
thankyou in anticipation.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 14-03-2000).]
after being hugely interested in the broquet filter I emailed them to ask for some background reading.
They have sent me the number of a man who can answer my questions but I am a physisist not a chemist and feel my questions would not be useful. Can someone else who can make more sense of the answers please reply to this and I will forward the number.
If the majority want it then I will post it.
thankyou in anticipation.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 14-03-2000).]
08 March 2000, 10:20 AM
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Excellent move on your part, I got your email.
As you can see from the above post, I am not confident to understand what you could tell me but I will give it a go.
If your claims are valid then there are a lot of people on this bb who would appreciate the benefits of your product.
Can it be proven that your catalyst directly increases octane levels, or is it supposed to give the same effect?
Would you be willing to supply a typical unit for a test car so that the differences might be tested on a rolling road?
Can you give us an idea as to the mechanism of how it works, in some detail?
If the product is as good as is advertised, why is it not widely heard of?
Why dont more companies make one? (I assume from the history that any patents must now have lapsed).
Why is it not fitted as standard on other cars requiring 98/97 octane such as TVRs etc.?
If you supply directly to subaru uk, can you give us an indication as to whether or not the use of your product is the sole reason that the P1 can produce its power output on uk fuel?
Can it be included in your claims that it directly increases power output of the engine?
Sorry for the amount of questions.
many thanks,
Adam
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 08-03-2000).]
As you can see from the above post, I am not confident to understand what you could tell me but I will give it a go.
If your claims are valid then there are a lot of people on this bb who would appreciate the benefits of your product.
Can it be proven that your catalyst directly increases octane levels, or is it supposed to give the same effect?
Would you be willing to supply a typical unit for a test car so that the differences might be tested on a rolling road?
Can you give us an idea as to the mechanism of how it works, in some detail?
If the product is as good as is advertised, why is it not widely heard of?
Why dont more companies make one? (I assume from the history that any patents must now have lapsed).
Why is it not fitted as standard on other cars requiring 98/97 octane such as TVRs etc.?
If you supply directly to subaru uk, can you give us an indication as to whether or not the use of your product is the sole reason that the P1 can produce its power output on uk fuel?
Can it be included in your claims that it directly increases power output of the engine?
Sorry for the amount of questions.
many thanks,
Adam
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 08-03-2000).]
08 March 2000, 11:04 AM
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Adam - thanks for re-opening this debate....
I have ordered 2 x 8 cone unit for my sti 5 today...I will not be able to report on their efficacy for some time but rest assured that if there is any significant data to report then I will do so once I have had enough time to properly assess the benefit or otherwise.
I should also be able to gain access to the Subaru Select Monitor to examine the ecu's response to the various sensors in real time - this will hopefully give some indication of what (if any) result broquet has on the combustion.
If the units are able to perform the same effect as adding octane booster (though not in this case by actually increasing the RON), then they will 'pay for themselves' in a reasonably short period. Also, if there is a 1 mpg (4%) or greater improvement (drop) in fuel consumption then the units will also be cost effective after 1 year in my case...
hopefully I will be able to give some indication as to whether this is the case - though fuel consumption figures are highly subjective and depend hugely on conditions, driving style etc....
With any luck I will be able to provide some tangible evidence of some benefits but am willing to give this a try in the interests of the SIDC community in general even if I can't prove any advantages in the end.
Meanwhile, if anyone is able to get to grips with the technical arguments surrounding the claims for the broquet unit then please post comments here - though I do think we should avoid unproven speculation at all costs !!! - it would be a shame to see this thread go down the route of other discussions that have degenerated into pointless arguments .
cheers,
Paul Webber
I have ordered 2 x 8 cone unit for my sti 5 today...I will not be able to report on their efficacy for some time but rest assured that if there is any significant data to report then I will do so once I have had enough time to properly assess the benefit or otherwise.
I should also be able to gain access to the Subaru Select Monitor to examine the ecu's response to the various sensors in real time - this will hopefully give some indication of what (if any) result broquet has on the combustion.
If the units are able to perform the same effect as adding octane booster (though not in this case by actually increasing the RON), then they will 'pay for themselves' in a reasonably short period. Also, if there is a 1 mpg (4%) or greater improvement (drop) in fuel consumption then the units will also be cost effective after 1 year in my case...
hopefully I will be able to give some indication as to whether this is the case - though fuel consumption figures are highly subjective and depend hugely on conditions, driving style etc....
With any luck I will be able to provide some tangible evidence of some benefits but am willing to give this a try in the interests of the SIDC community in general even if I can't prove any advantages in the end.
Meanwhile, if anyone is able to get to grips with the technical arguments surrounding the claims for the broquet unit then please post comments here - though I do think we should avoid unproven speculation at all costs !!! - it would be a shame to see this thread go down the route of other discussions that have degenerated into pointless arguments .
cheers,
Paul Webber
08 March 2000, 03:00 PM
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Answers:
Broquet does not raise octane rating.
It achieves the same result from a quicker , more even and more complete combustion of the fuel.
Research is being conducted by The International Tin Research Institute , and we now believe that Broquet works in at least two ways. Firstly as a Metal Deactivating Agent , and secondly to prevent oxidative degradation of fuel. However the field of catalysis is extremely complex and other lines of investigation are in hand.
We supply 2,500 stockists in the UK.Over 200,000 units have been supplied over the years.
Broquet attracts many copies some of which have been mentioned previously on scoobynet.
Subaru and Broquet (official line)The company is unable to comment on its use by Subaru uk.
Off the record if your car is uk supplied Subaru Technical have advised on suitable application , when asked .
Literature produced by Broquet and tests over the years have shown generally a power increase in the region of 5% to 6%
My own experiences back this up fully (over 12 years)
Does this help ?
rb
Broquet does not raise octane rating.
It achieves the same result from a quicker , more even and more complete combustion of the fuel.
Research is being conducted by The International Tin Research Institute , and we now believe that Broquet works in at least two ways. Firstly as a Metal Deactivating Agent , and secondly to prevent oxidative degradation of fuel. However the field of catalysis is extremely complex and other lines of investigation are in hand.
We supply 2,500 stockists in the UK.Over 200,000 units have been supplied over the years.
Broquet attracts many copies some of which have been mentioned previously on scoobynet.
Subaru and Broquet (official line)The company is unable to comment on its use by Subaru uk.
Off the record if your car is uk supplied Subaru Technical have advised on suitable application , when asked .
Literature produced by Broquet and tests over the years have shown generally a power increase in the region of 5% to 6%
My own experiences back this up fully (over 12 years)
Does this help ?
rb
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09 March 2000, 07:55 AM
#9
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I just wonder if Prodrive use them to reduce the emmissions. (?)
The big questions in my mind (and I don't want this to take this thread off subject) are,
1. Will a lucky P1 owner let Bob Rawle have a look at the ECU?
I would imagine that just by looking at the ECU it will be possible to tell if Prodrive have remapped it?
2. If there is no eveidence of a remap, then surely the Broquet is the sole cure for running STi V's and such on 95 or 97RON? (whatever fuel grade Prodrive recommend for the P1)
From what I've read, the power output from a 'standard' P1 is the same as a normal STi V, so some evidence does go towards Prodrive not remapping.
3. What fuel grade are Prodrive recommending for the P1?
4. Were the 22B Type UK's remapped by Prodrive? and what fuel is recommended?
From what we have read in previous posts, it appears that Prodrive did not remap the 22B type UK, but did introduce a couple of Broquets (can't remember if they were 'in-line' or 'in-tank' items). I can't recall any unmodified type UK's going pop.(?)
Cheers
Dave
The big questions in my mind (and I don't want this to take this thread off subject) are,
1. Will a lucky P1 owner let Bob Rawle have a look at the ECU?
I would imagine that just by looking at the ECU it will be possible to tell if Prodrive have remapped it?
2. If there is no eveidence of a remap, then surely the Broquet is the sole cure for running STi V's and such on 95 or 97RON? (whatever fuel grade Prodrive recommend for the P1)
From what I've read, the power output from a 'standard' P1 is the same as a normal STi V, so some evidence does go towards Prodrive not remapping.
3. What fuel grade are Prodrive recommending for the P1?
4. Were the 22B Type UK's remapped by Prodrive? and what fuel is recommended?
From what we have read in previous posts, it appears that Prodrive did not remap the 22B type UK, but did introduce a couple of Broquets (can't remember if they were 'in-line' or 'in-tank' items). I can't recall any unmodified type UK's going pop.(?)
Cheers
Dave
09 March 2000, 09:29 AM
#11
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I know of one Type UK 22B that has had to have a full engine rebuild at 7000 miles due to piston crown failure.
This had been run on 97RON and with the standard 2 broquets in the fuel tank as fitted by IM.
One to ponder on I reckon...........
This had been run on 97RON and with the standard 2 broquets in the fuel tank as fitted by IM.
One to ponder on I reckon...........
09 March 2000, 11:52 AM
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rb,
I'm not an expert, but I do have a very authoritative textbook here that contains some info on the subject of octane ratings. The book is Internal Combusion Engine Fundamentals, John B. Heywood (McGraw Hill, 0-07-100499-8). The information below is summarised from pages 473-478. Please excuse me if you are aware of all this, but it may be of interest to other readers also...
There are two commonly used measures of the knock-resistance of fuel: research octane number (RON) and motor octane number (MON). Both measures rely upon special single-cylinder four stroke test motors, that can take fuel from multiple sources for comparison purposes. The MON engine uses higher inlet temperatures and more advanced timing, thus the MON will usually be lower than the RON for any given fuel.
In both cases, however, the test is based upon the tendency of the fuel to knock. Thus, in saying that "Broquet does not raise octane rating" (I assume you mean RON) you have gone half way to confirming that it will offer no extra engine safety at all. Certainly speed of combustion and general flame front behaviour will affect the knock resistance of the fuel, but if the measured knock resistance isn't altered, that is neither here nor there.
Best regards,
-= mike nunan =-
I'm not an expert, but I do have a very authoritative textbook here that contains some info on the subject of octane ratings. The book is Internal Combusion Engine Fundamentals, John B. Heywood (McGraw Hill, 0-07-100499-8). The information below is summarised from pages 473-478. Please excuse me if you are aware of all this, but it may be of interest to other readers also...
There are two commonly used measures of the knock-resistance of fuel: research octane number (RON) and motor octane number (MON). Both measures rely upon special single-cylinder four stroke test motors, that can take fuel from multiple sources for comparison purposes. The MON engine uses higher inlet temperatures and more advanced timing, thus the MON will usually be lower than the RON for any given fuel.
In both cases, however, the test is based upon the tendency of the fuel to knock. Thus, in saying that "Broquet does not raise octane rating" (I assume you mean RON) you have gone half way to confirming that it will offer no extra engine safety at all. Certainly speed of combustion and general flame front behaviour will affect the knock resistance of the fuel, but if the measured knock resistance isn't altered, that is neither here nor there.
Best regards,
-= mike nunan =-
13 March 2000, 10:51 PM
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Thanks for your comment Ian
The very nature of the 22B means that at times they suffer abuse. Broquet does not work miracles.
To the best of my knowledge Broquet has only been of benefit to a growing number of Subaru owners. ME INCLUDED
rb
The very nature of the 22B means that at times they suffer abuse. Broquet does not work miracles.
To the best of my knowledge Broquet has only been of benefit to a growing number of Subaru owners. ME INCLUDED
rb
14 March 2000, 02:09 PM
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Obviously the web site knows more than I do. I got my figure from someone who has just bought obne for an STi from a previous thread. I am sure he said that the price was in that region. These were the type that go in the fuel lines not in the tank. Perhaps that is where the difference lies.
Can the authority on this please speak up on this .
Can the authority on this please speak up on this .
14 March 2000, 02:48 PM
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Hi guys, Ive just come off the phone to David Lock at Broquet and what a nice chap he is. The price is way less than half of the £400 I have heard quoted for 2 of the 8 cone units for 300 bhp Imprezas. If you want to chat to him hes on 01403 823507.
Stupot
Stupot
14 March 2000, 03:36 PM
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Broquet 8 cone units retail at £72.85
2 of the above are required.
20% discount is given to Subaru owners.
Including vat 2 x 8 cone units cost £116.56.
No postage charges.
To clarify i am a Broquet distributor and a Subaru owner hence the discount
D Lock and myself have been involved with this product for over 10 years.
rb
p.s.Broquet Freephone 0800 0749798.
2 of the above are required.
20% discount is given to Subaru owners.
Including vat 2 x 8 cone units cost £116.56.
No postage charges.
To clarify i am a Broquet distributor and a Subaru owner hence the discount
D Lock and myself have been involved with this product for over 10 years.
rb
p.s.Broquet Freephone 0800 0749798.
14 March 2000, 03:37 PM
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Just ordered two 8 cone units for inside the tank a la P1 from very nice man mentioned above.
For 147.70 (-20% to sidc people) thought it was worth a go.
Will let people know but the turnover of business, warranty, plus the claims about emissions make it sound v interesting.
Worth a shot anyway.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 14-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 14-03-2000).]
For 147.70 (-20% to sidc people) thought it was worth a go.
Will let people know but the turnover of business, warranty, plus the claims about emissions make it sound v interesting.
Worth a shot anyway.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 14-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 14-03-2000).]
15 March 2000, 02:46 PM
#27
Ecu Specialist
I am going to give this a try, I estimate that it will take me about three/four weeks to suss out what benefits I can get. Once I have some info then I will post to the list with findings.
Plan is ... using 97 ron fuel (Esso)to start.
1. Return ecu to my 98 ron setup.
2. If this is good then see how much further I can push the ecu settings before sufferig det.
3. Reset to 98 ron settings and then run on 95 ron like this.
4. If this is good then repeat 2 above.
I always use booster for track days and this always helps the engine to run much more smoothly, I will be looking for a similar "feel" to things as well.
Hopefully this will help provide some more specific information on the benefits. I will be able to get some before and after power and torque figures from this as well. (for both fuel types)
Bob
(repeated in the other thread)
Plan is ... using 97 ron fuel (Esso)to start.
1. Return ecu to my 98 ron setup.
2. If this is good then see how much further I can push the ecu settings before sufferig det.
3. Reset to 98 ron settings and then run on 95 ron like this.
4. If this is good then repeat 2 above.
I always use booster for track days and this always helps the engine to run much more smoothly, I will be looking for a similar "feel" to things as well.
Hopefully this will help provide some more specific information on the benefits. I will be able to get some before and after power and torque figures from this as well. (for both fuel types)
Bob
(repeated in the other thread)
16 March 2000, 11:00 AM
#28
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Just to clarify, it would appear that the access to the fuel tank requires, removal of the hatches which contain the senders for the fuel level.
These are underneath the boot floor apparently, and so require me to move my heftily locked in audio equipment.
I will post full details when I have them, re installation.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 16-03-2000).]
These are underneath the boot floor apparently, and so require me to move my heftily locked in audio equipment.
I will post full details when I have them, re installation.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 16-03-2000).]
16 March 2000, 11:55 AM
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Adam,
I had a chat with Peter Wright, the access panels are in the boot, they are circular and when removed reveal two more access panels that give direct access to the tank. Lift up these inner panels slightly and drop in the broquet one on each side.
This is what Peter did in his RB5 which I presume is the same as an STi V?
I have recieved my Broquet's and will be fitting in the morning, so I hope the above is correct.
Any Fuel Tank experts on the board?
Dave
I had a chat with Peter Wright, the access panels are in the boot, they are circular and when removed reveal two more access panels that give direct access to the tank. Lift up these inner panels slightly and drop in the broquet one on each side.
This is what Peter did in his RB5 which I presume is the same as an STi V?
I have recieved my Broquet's and will be fitting in the morning, so I hope the above is correct.
Any Fuel Tank experts on the board?
Dave
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