stefjw

Hi

Running out of places to discuss this so I thought I'd try here, since alot of you are parents and I know there's quite a few smart cookies lurking about aswell

I've been researching this as its time for my 1 year old to receive his first round of MMR vaccine

All I can find is half stories and plenty of mud slinging. I don't really feel comfortable taking certain studies on their word. If you look who financed the vast majority of them it brings up a massive conflict of interest.

From what I can gather, theres a very very small chance of serious negative side affects (namely autism, which has held up in a court of law) which is attributed to the child having previous underlying health problems, which the doctor claims are undetectable pre vaccination.

So even though its a minuscule amount of risk, it's a risk none the less.

When you compare it to the chances of him catching measles, mumps or rubella and having lasting affects on his health is it really worth it ?

Has anyone decided against having their child vaccinated ?

pslewis

For your child's sake - do it!

A child dying of whooping cough is not pleasant.

I take it this also protects the child against whooping cough? Whether it does or not - my answer still applies - DO IT!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I understand its a major concern for any parent, and I can also understamd that if there WAS a issue, this government would do its best to supress any information saying this (it wouldn't be the first time).

That leaves you deciding between a rock and a hard place. Belive the conspiracy theories (as thats what they are until proven otherwise), and risk your child becoming seriously disabled or dying from a disease or a secondary infection (pneumonia Sepsis/septicemia etc) from catching a virus. And trust me, you do not want your child to get a secondary infection, the risk of death for an adult with sepsis is high let alone a baby.

Or have the MMR and and risk the known side effects as well as the unknown/unproven ones. There are seperate vaccines too, but they aren't offered by the NHS, and they could have issues too.


Autism is a condition where the medical world knows very little of its causes. Most of it is anecdotal. However we are now seeing more and more people showing signs of higher-level functioning Autism and to be frank its the tip of Iceburg; Our NHS only caters for kids with the condition. There are countless numbers of undiagnosed adults suffering from high-functioning Autism. The NHS and goverenment won't further research on this as the costs of confirming a diagnosis on millions of adult sufferers will put a unpresidented demand on the UK's social/welfare resources.

Really if it were transparent the NHS would seen to test and diagnose as many adults as it can who have issues with cognitive and social devolopment. Then see if there is any correlation in the time when the MMR jab or any other immunisation/medication became mainstream. But that will never happen - and if it did and the results proved it, I'm certain we'd never be told.

So its sad to say you will never ever know if its 100% safe or not. But in the balance of probability based on the population who have had it, it probably is alot less risky than the complications of catching the viruses that the jab immunises against.

So if it were me, I'd get it done...I didn't have the MMR jab - I had the single individual vaccines instead. And to be frank, I do suffer from some impairments - did the vaccines do it? I don't know; Probably more likely to have been Lead poisoning via the exhaust fumes of being strapped in the back of my Mum's TR6. But I'm still here in one piece and I am compus mentis - And that's the important thing.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I felt exactly the same about 5yrs ago when my lad had to have them, I really wasn't happy about it but we went ahead and had them done, very nerve wracking but the other possibilities don't bare thinking about.

Unfortunately no one can make the decision for you, either way it's a roll of the dice.

hodgy0_2

my two penneth - all my 5 have had the MMR, and yes my wife and I had read all the reports and been to all the "seminars"

i just ensured that when the appointment came (for each of them) they were in v good health, i.e no sniffles

so tbh - we rarely had them vaccinated in the winter - when they all seem to permanent green train tracks eminating from the nose

my rationale was that why inject them with MMR when their immune system is already working overtime, seems common sense to me

Dingdongler

No offense but you will not be able to make head or tail of the trials and meta analyses that surround this subject. Most medics struggle including myself, the statistics and potential issues surrounding them will turn your brain to jelly.

The huge body of unqualified and pseudo qualified internet/media massive that spout opinions on the matter don't really understand it imho.

All I can tell you is that as a doctor I have given my kids the MMR, and every doctor I personally know has made the same decision.

That's not to say I understand the statistics myself as all the questions have not been answered. However on balance most doctors I know have thought it's the right thing to do for their own kids.

Geezer

I can't believe people still question it! It has been utterly discredited, the Lancet published a retraction and the guy who originated it was struck off.

Even if it were true, the chances of it affecting your child are miniscule. The chances of them dying in an accident at home or on the road are of an order of magnitude higher, but you don't stop them going out, or taking them in the car etc.

The dangers of measles is very real, the dangers of MMR are, at best, unlikely.

boomer

I take it that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, so STFU!!

mb

zip106

My daughter had it 11 years ago but my son, who is now 8, had them singularly.
He was due to have them right at the same time as the whole furore about their safety kicked off, so we went with our gut feeling.

Unfortunately we couldn't get the final one (rubella?) as the private clinic we used couldn't get hold of it (rumours abound that the govt withheld stocks, but I'm not sure how true that was?).

Anyway, so far so good as far as his health goes.

boomer

stefjw,

The big thing that worries me about this whole affair is not the scentific evidence - it is the "closing ranks" and "cover ups" and "fait accompli"s that happened and kept on happening.

Parents who wanted a choice WERE PREVENTED FROM TAKING A CHOICE, because the (UK) pharmaceutical companies (suddenly) no longer offered the single vaccines. This is people offering REAL MONEY who were denied what they wanted!

People who spoke up against MMR were ostracised.

Even Private Eye magaziine, after publishing an MMR Special Report, unexpectedly changed it's view (and removed the Special Report from it's web-site, with no explanation). Very strange for such a free speech icon!!

There is something happening behind the scenes that is quite un-settling - and if i had the money i would absolutly go single-jabs. Unfortunately that probably means flying to France, such is the hidden manipulation

Sure, statistically there is very little risk (as seen by the number of MMRs that are administrered every year) - but something just doesn't seem right.

Oh, and i say this as someone who has actually had Measles, Mumps and Rubella!

mb

hodgy0_2

agreed boomer, the medical profession have done themselves no favours in this

Turbohot

Good post, Boomer.

Now if you start guessing what could be happening behind the scenes, you'd get diagnosed as a conspiracy theorist. Saying that, there are some very high profile academics as well as MDs/psychiatrists who will agree with you in general, about how this medicine industry manipulates the world of diseases and the diseased.

On the subject, mine did have MMR vaccine. I don't think there was much awareness of the negatives about them that time. My older kid is 26 and younger is 21, so we're talking years ago. Anyway, apart from being a bit crazy (please don't blame MMR vaccine for that; you know where they get their crazy genes from), they are just fine. Well, I think they are, anyway.

if you don't have MMR vaccine, and if you get complications with your MMR infections, that could be very damaging as well. So, I'd take a chance tbh. It's not so strongly substantiated yet, is it? That MMR definitely is very harmful. Is it? May be it is, I don't know.

You may say, well, MMR are uncommon in the UK. They could be uncommon here because people have been getting MMR vaccine. I mean as long as your children are children, you can control their movements, and keep them restricted to the UK and MMR immune countries. You won't be able to do that when they start to become adolescents/young adults, and start travelling abroad with school and by themselves etc. So, I'd rather them covered with the vaccine tbh. That's just my view.

stefjw

The main false accusation levelled in February 2004 was that Wakefield made his disclosures in a medical paper published in The Lancet medical journal because he wanted to make money being an expert witness in Court. But few people know the following [and there is naturally full documentation on this].

Crispin Davis, the Chief Executive of Reed-Elsevier, the owners of “The Lancet”, had a few months earlier in the July [2003] been brought onto the Board of Directors of MMR litigation Defendants’ parent company GlaxoSmithKline.

The Sunday Times had waited until Sunday 22 February 2004, 5 days before judgment in the MMR child litigants’ High Court challenge to the withdrawal of legal aid, to publish its stories attacking Wakefield. Prime Minister Blair was reported in the press on the issue as was Health Secretary Reid.

Legal aid was withdrawn on 27th February 2004 in a secret judgment by High Court Judge Nigel Davis. The reasons remain unpublished today. Evidence given in open court at a different hearing included the allegation from a parent that an official admitted to her that legal aid was withdrawn after government pressure.

It was discovered in 2007 that Judge Sir Nigel Davis is the brother of Lancet owner’s CEO and main Glaxo board member Sir Crispin Davis. When challenged a statement was issued on Judge Davis’ behalf to The Telegraph newspaper’s legal correspondent Joshua Rosenberg and stated “The possibility of any conflict of interest arising from his brother’s position did not occur to him.“

The outcome of an investigation by the Office for Judicial Complaints found no impropriety and resulted in no action taken regarding the relationship between Judge Davis and his brother Crispin Davis’ GlaxoSmithKline board position.


I know Geezer, it must be hard to believe that I find the above concerning, isn't it ?

stefjw

thanks for the great replys though guys, I was worried that this thread would go in the other direction

cster

I followed the Private Eye reporting of this story and did not find anything sinister or strange in its changing of view. They simply admitted that they had got it wrong IMO.
Both of my children had MMR vaccination. Autism runs through my family, but neither of them have been so unfortunate as to suffer from its ill effects.
Everyone seems to go on about the rights of parents to take control of such matters in their children's interests.
But are the rights of the parents more important than the rights of the child? When you are a parent, you don't own your child - they are not your property.
Most parents wouldn't know **** about this particular subject, yet are perfectly happy to go along with any conspiracy theory or whatever.
So a bit of a conundrum I guess.
I am not really a fan of mass medication in general, but if you are going to rely on a monolithic public health system like the NHS, then it is obviously going to take you down that particular path.

hodgy0_2

Educate yourself as far as is practicable, then take a veiw - simple

thenewgalaxy

Wow.

I find it incredible that people still approach the MMR vaccine with trepidation in view of the events that took place.

The study was a farce. It focussed on twelve individuals - hardly what one would describe as a sizeable study - and made hugely irrational conclusions. It is still a major source of embarrassment for those that associated themselves with it.

The fact is that the MMR has no link to autism whatsoever and that Andrew Wakefield, the main author of the study was struck off for gross professional misconduct for the highly misleading part he played in contributing to the first death by measles in many years. That cause was involving the media and causing panic by claiming his study demonstrated a link when there very clearly was none at all.

If we wish to worry about possible risks of MMR, there is a very very slight chance of a mild (often sub clinical) mumps or meningitis after administration of the vaccine, though the symptoms experienced are many times less than those that would be experienced were someone to be infected with the regularly-occurring virulent strains which can cause extremely unpleasant problems as is well known!

We have seen medical healthcare products and treatments come under fire for various reasons over the years, some of which have had tragic side effects (Thalidomide, Heroin) and others (MMR, fluoride) that have had a bandwagon that continue to campaign against it despite a complete lack of evidence.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

For me the value of MMR is pretty clear (risk versus benefit) in my mind and all my kids have been vaccinated.

What isn't so clear is vaccinating boys against HPV which is a big player in oral cancer, again I weight the risk over benefit and I had him vaccinated and swallowed the near Ł400 it cost me for his future benefit.

Shaun

cster

Unfortunately, for many children, this consists of their parents reading the Daily Scare or something similar.
As some have pointed out already, unless you have a pretty good understanding of statistical analysis and medical research papers, you are going to have to defer to someone who does.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

When I was at school they didn't give the MMR jab to boys as the R part is Rubella(sp) and boys do not catch this as it is a girls only disease, or this is what we were told anyway. So has something changed in the last 25 years where boys now get the MMR jab even though they don't need it? We got seperate jabs for M & M.

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

at this thread.

Why not look into homeopathic remedies while you're at it

urban

iTrader: (1)

As a parent of two, I have also done the same.
They are both pretty grown up now (late teens/early twenties) and both are healthy and well.

Infact I'm not aware of any parent friends who have refused the jab

mrtheedge2u2

As someone who is involved with the regulating of vaccines I can firmly state that the MMR vaccine has a very very positive risk/benefit profile.

All medicinal products, whether they be anti-inflammatories such as Ibuprofen or vaccines, all carry the risk of side-effects. Side-effect free drugs just do not, nor will, exist.

You would be foolish to not have our child inoculated.

thenewgalaxy

There will always be a few who refuse it for whatever reasons...

My Facebook feed is occasionally spammed by various adverts and shared links to all kinds of weird and wonderful remedies. I love the way people will turn their back on a well-known form of treatment and claim that "it's scientifically proven to cause problems" (despite any lack of any scientific evidence) and then use pseudo-scientific babble to justify the homeopathic or "natural" cure that we should all be using.

Someone the other day told me they feel far better since they stopped drinking tap water and switched to mineral water, and believed that the fluoride in tap water was causing problems. I thought it easier not to point out that our tap water here has none in it, and that bottled water has at least 1ppm - the last person I pointed it out to told me that it was "natural fluoride"

David Lock

Agreed.

We had our kids done and all well.

dl

^Qwerty^

To not have the MMR done is incredibly selfish as you then heighten the risk for everyone else in your child’s social circle of catching the illnesses, regardless of if they've had it or not.

Geezer

Well I had rubella as a child, and whilst I have been called a big girl's blouse on occasion, I do believe I am male. I had it at the same time I had chicken pox, you can't buy that kinda luck!

The reason they used to vaccinate girls only is because of the risk to problems with the foetus if you get it in the early part of pregnancy. Rubella is very mild in itself, so probably not worth injecting the boys, but now they combined it in to 1, it's difficult not to do the boys.

Jonnys3

I'll second that. Both my daughters have been immunized.

Geezer

So, we have gone from one media driven bit of madness, to another media driven conspiracy!

That not withstanding, the GMC struck Wakefield off. His 'research' was seriously flawed and inappropriate.

Stop seeing commies under the bed, get your kids vaccinated!

Tidgy

was gonan say, the paper back in the day that casued all the anti mmr outcry turned out to be fudged and discredited. Get it done