EU referendum vote
20 October 2011, 09:39 AM
#1
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EU referendum vote
So Commons may vote on Monday as: -
1) Stay in
2) Renegotiate
3? Get out
Say if "Stay in" gets 40% and 2) and 3) get 30% each what is actual result? "Stay in" gets more votes but clearly the majority don't want us to stay and do nothing?
My guess is that "Renegotiate" will be the winner but Cameron will take no notice.
dl
1) Stay in
2) Renegotiate
3? Get out
Say if "Stay in" gets 40% and 2) and 3) get 30% each what is actual result? "Stay in" gets more votes but clearly the majority don't want us to stay and do nothing?
My guess is that "Renegotiate" will be the winner but Cameron will take no notice.
dl
Last edited by David Lock; 20 October 2011 at 09:41 AM.
20 October 2011, 10:11 AM
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I thought they were debating whether to allow the people to have a referendum which is by far the right way since this country belongs to us all, not just the politicians.
We know of course that the vast majority of politicians are looking to their own future and thus will always favour remaining in Europe and will almost certainly go along with federalisation, ie the destruction of our country and our democratic rights.
Les
We know of course that the vast majority of politicians are looking to their own future and thus will always favour remaining in Europe and will almost certainly go along with federalisation, ie the destruction of our country and our democratic rights.
Les
20 October 2011, 11:09 AM
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I tend to agree but that is a bit of a dangerous argument to follow. After all MPs are there to represent their constituents and the Tories did give an undertaking to have a referendum in their Manifesto.
Similar to the capital punishment question - it would always be rejected by the House but most people think it would be a good idea (I don't as it happens).
dl
20 October 2011, 11:17 AM
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It was going to be on Thursday but was brought forward 'cos Wee ***** won't be there on Thursday! Other reasons "could" be that a) Call Me Dave wants less time for momentum to build up for a 'get us out of the EU' vote and b) weren't there going to be mass demos on the Thursday and, heaven forbid, that MPs could be influenced into voting how their constituents want them to vote .....
As for manifesto "committments" didn't someone take the last Liebor government to court over this and it was ruled that manifestos are not binding, merely 'wishes' or somesuch tosh?
Oh, and they reckon Call Me Dave has called a 3 line whip on his MPs to vote against a referendum. Says it all about how much "they" think of the electorate. And the reason they're not all hanging from lampposts is ...???
Dave
As for manifesto "committments" didn't someone take the last Liebor government to court over this and it was ruled that manifestos are not binding, merely 'wishes' or somesuch tosh?
Oh, and they reckon Call Me Dave has called a 3 line whip on his MPs to vote against a referendum. Says it all about how much "they" think of the electorate. And the reason they're not all hanging from lampposts is ...???
Dave
20 October 2011, 11:17 AM
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Any referendum like any ballot paper in an election should have 5 questions pertinent to the subject being voted on. Get any of those wrong and your vote is binned.
At the last election something like 35% of people polled in one of these polls didn't know who David Cameron was and 20% didn't know who Brown was..... lucky ba5tards
At the last election something like 35% of people polled in one of these polls didn't know who David Cameron was and 20% didn't know who Brown was..... lucky ba5tards
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20 October 2011, 12:02 PM
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Any referendum like any ballot paper in an election should have 5 questions pertinent to the subject being voted on. Get any of those wrong and your vote is binned.
At the last election something like 35% of people polled in one of these polls didn't know who David Cameron was and 20% didn't know who Brown was..... lucky ba5tards
At the last election something like 35% of people polled in one of these polls didn't know who David Cameron was and 20% didn't know who Brown was..... lucky ba5tards
And no one had any idea of who Clegg was
dl
20 October 2011, 12:41 PM
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If Renegotiate = play the EU game like every other country does, ie like that bit - not following that bit, then yes it renegotiate time with the UK been the winner in the game and not bent over backwards by the EU, Otherwise I think its time to get out
Richard
Richard
20 October 2011, 01:16 PM
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This is our country, it does not belong to the politicians nor have they got the right to give it away to even more corrupt leaders in order to improve their own situation on the World stage.
We as the people have a perfect right to be able to say yes or no to a situation which affects the continuing existence of our own country and the independence to run our own affairs. With the parlous position of the Euro at the moment, how can one possible trust them to improve our lot?
Their own accounts have not been passed by the auditors for over 15 years!
You are underestimating the intelligence of the people in general and we all know what we really want when it comes to retaining our own country. It really is not that difficult to work out.
You would do better to keep your unpleasant and innaccurate insults to yourself until you yourself can say you actually understand the situation.
Les
20 October 2011, 01:31 PM
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I dont see how Cameron 'imposing a three line whip' is in any way seen as democratic...
he's basically saying if you vote against your career is over....
Hobsons choice.....and they say we live in a democratic society
email your MP at firstname.lastname.mp@parliament.uk
Out all the way for me
he's basically saying if you vote against your career is over....
Hobsons choice.....and they say we live in a democratic society
email your MP at firstname.lastname.mp@parliament.uk
Out all the way for me
20 October 2011, 05:23 PM
#16
That is a very offensive and also a very superior attitude to take.
This is our country, it does not belong to the politicians nor have they got the right to give it away to even more corrupt leaders in order to improve their own situation on the World stage.
We as the people have a perfect right to be able to say yes or no to a situation which affects the continuing existence of our own country and the independence to run our own affairs. With the parlous position of the Euro at the moment, how can one possible trust them to improve our lot?
Their own accounts have not been passed by the auditors for over 15 years!
You are underestimating the intelligence of the people in general and we all know what we really want when it comes to retaining our own country. It really is not that difficult to work out.
You would do better to keep your unpleasant and innaccurate insults to yourself until you yourself can say you actually understand the situation.
Les
This is our country, it does not belong to the politicians nor have they got the right to give it away to even more corrupt leaders in order to improve their own situation on the World stage.
We as the people have a perfect right to be able to say yes or no to a situation which affects the continuing existence of our own country and the independence to run our own affairs. With the parlous position of the Euro at the moment, how can one possible trust them to improve our lot?
Their own accounts have not been passed by the auditors for over 15 years!
You are underestimating the intelligence of the people in general and we all know what we really want when it comes to retaining our own country. It really is not that difficult to work out.
You would do better to keep your unpleasant and innaccurate insults to yourself until you yourself can say you actually understand the situation.
Les
20 October 2011, 05:40 PM
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You're kidding, right?
Here's a little exercise to try: head on over to www.yahoo.co.uk, pick any news item you like from the home page - anything relating to politics or the state of the economy works best - and have a read of the comments. If as a result, your opinion as to the intelligence of the 'average' person doesn't go down, I'll buy you a pint.
Here's a little exercise to try: head on over to www.yahoo.co.uk, pick any news item you like from the home page - anything relating to politics or the state of the economy works best - and have a read of the comments. If as a result, your opinion as to the intelligence of the 'average' person doesn't go down, I'll buy you a pint.
20 October 2011, 10:32 PM
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I think Ireland proved that they only accept the vote if it is what they want so if by a miracle they cant rig Mondays vote to stop the people voting they will just keep having referendums until they get the vote they want which will be to stay in as it is a gravy train for the political elite.
Maybe some one should start a referendum to say that as we are now in the EU we disband the house of commons, house of Lords as they have no real power and just create an English parliament with the reduced costs. I am sure if the MP's realised we are going to out source their jobs to Europe they might have 2nd thoughts about staying in!
Maybe some one should start a referendum to say that as we are now in the EU we disband the house of commons, house of Lords as they have no real power and just create an English parliament with the reduced costs. I am sure if the MP's realised we are going to out source their jobs to Europe they might have 2nd thoughts about staying in!
21 October 2011, 12:00 AM
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The ONLY thing that would make me want to leave this country would be the return of the death sentence - and some subjects like this, in my mind are better served by Parliament than referendum. Indeed that is the democratic process.
To my mind a referendum is a total failure of the democratic process.
21 October 2011, 08:45 AM
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21 October 2011, 09:10 AM
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EFA 
So, our elected representatives ignore the will of the majority* of the people and you're fine with that? To me that is the failure with our democratic process!
Dave
* - just check back on most surveys on the subject for the last decade.
Good or bad Les it is a democracy and so the politicians, as elected representatives, have every democratic right to do what they will.
The ONLY thing that would make me want to leave this country would be the return of the death sentence - and some subjects like this, in my mind are better served by Parliament than referendum. Indeed that is the democratic process.
To my mind a referendum is a total failure of the democratic process.
The ONLY thing that would make me want to leave this country would be the return of the death sentence - and some subjects like this, in my mind are better served by Parliament than referendum. Indeed that is the democratic process.
To my mind a referendum is a total failure of the democratic process.
Dave
* - just check back on most surveys on the subject for the last decade.
21 October 2011, 09:31 AM
#23
Leslie,
Exactly what did we vote these MPs in for, if not to decide on these complex matters on our behalf? The Fallacy of Popularity applies here I think; the most popular answer isn't necessarily the right answer.
X-Factor / Britain's Got Talent gets more viewers than the General Election results or the Leader's Debate shows of the last election, that should tell you something.
Exactly what did we vote these MPs in for, if not to decide on these complex matters on our behalf? The Fallacy of Popularity applies here I think; the most popular answer isn't necessarily the right answer.
X-Factor / Britain's Got Talent gets more viewers than the General Election results or the Leader's Debate shows of the last election, that should tell you something.
Last edited by ReallyReallyGoodMeat; 21 October 2011 at 09:35 AM.
21 October 2011, 09:40 AM
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Leslie,
Exactly what did we vote these MPs in for, if not to decide on these complex matters on our behalf? The Fallacy of Popularity applies here I think; the most popular answer isn't necessarily the right answer.
X-Factor / Britain's Got Talent gets more viewers than the General Election results or the Leader's Debate shows of the last election, that should tell you something.
Exactly what did we vote these MPs in for, if not to decide on these complex matters on our behalf? The Fallacy of Popularity applies here I think; the most popular answer isn't necessarily the right answer.
X-Factor / Britain's Got Talent gets more viewers than the General Election results or the Leader's Debate shows of the last election, that should tell you something.
21 October 2011, 10:15 AM
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Dave
21 October 2011, 10:22 AM
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If you feel that is wrong then what have you actually done about it rather than whine about it - because that will make a real difference I am sure!
Last edited by Trout; 21 October 2011 at 10:26 AM.
21 October 2011, 10:25 AM
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There is a lot of evidence to suggest that having the public vote on things you always get the worst answer - the lowest common denominator.
One of the best examples is car design - designs that have been known to have been heavily 'cliniced' are nearly always far less popular than models that have not - and yet they are the designs that were most popular with consumer forums.
The general public have a lot to answer for
21 October 2011, 10:29 AM
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I'm going to spend today looking to meet people that I feel are competent enough to be given the opportunity to decide Britain's European future. Report later.