EU referendum vote
29 October 2011, 11:49 PM
#181
But replace this "If" with "when" because this one's a cert.
"If a national govt does something that spooks the markets (like walking away from our biggest trading client) capital dries up (no money for business investment), Govt debt rates shoot up (higher taxes), your currency falls (higher petrol, gas), shares drop (lower pensions), taxes are forced up (e.g. Greece). All as fast as you can click a mouse."
30 October 2011, 12:16 AM
#182
We are a (virtually) fully developed economy and we're in recession. We have few prospects of growth just selling to ourselves (no-one's buying, public sector's cutting back). The same money would go round and round, ending up in fewer and fewer people's hands.
We have to aim for growth by growing our global exports. Not just to the EU but globally. But risking being (further) sidelined by our biggest export market isn't going to help, is it?
Play the current rules smart, like the Germans, French, Italians ... they end up with different results from the same rules.
30 October 2011, 06:41 PM
#185
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Thanks, Andy
Don’t mean to lower the tone but ….
Seems we want to **** Europe but we can’t bear to bring ourselves to kiss her!
And we keep talking about moving out but we think she’s going to keep letting us back in for some regular jiggy-jiggy whenever we feel like it!
She’s going to notice and she’ll shut and bar the door.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This attitude goes right to the top:
Last week the Eurozone was wrestling with the 'problem birth' of a Euro crisis solution.
Cameron turns up in Brussels like some absentee father and gives 'midwives' Mercle and Svarkosy (M&S) a finger-wagging lecture about how they’ve "got to get it right because what’s good for [his baby] is good for Britain too". Eh?
Then like a proper absentee dad, at 4am in the morning, instead of being sat next to bleary-eyed M&S and telling the world press how (for a fee) the City of London would be gathering global funds to underpin the foetal Euro solution, he’s …
… flying off on a jaunt out to Aus’ to make the earth-shattering announcement that not the next UK monarchy, nor the one after that, but the one after him (still with me?) can be a 'first-born' Queen and she can marry a Catholic.
Now I believe in equality even more than I believe in Europe but even I have to ask; Have we got our priorities right here?
Cameron didn’t even offer to stop on the way back to sell the Chinese the idea that the City could come up with some good products (for a fee) for channelling Chinese investor money into the bale-out fund.
We just sidelined ourselves in Europe even more (and passed up a foreign trade opportunity in our own specialist area).
Don’t mean to lower the tone but ….
Seems we want to **** Europe but we can’t bear to bring ourselves to kiss her!
And we keep talking about moving out but we think she’s going to keep letting us back in for some regular jiggy-jiggy whenever we feel like it!
She’s going to notice and she’ll shut and bar the door.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This attitude goes right to the top:
Last week the Eurozone was wrestling with the 'problem birth' of a Euro crisis solution.
Cameron turns up in Brussels like some absentee father and gives 'midwives' Mercle and Svarkosy (M&S) a finger-wagging lecture about how they’ve "got to get it right because what’s good for [his baby] is good for Britain too". Eh?
Then like a proper absentee dad, at 4am in the morning, instead of being sat next to bleary-eyed M&S and telling the world press how (for a fee) the City of London would be gathering global funds to underpin the foetal Euro solution, he’s …
… flying off on a jaunt out to Aus’ to make the earth-shattering announcement that not the next UK monarchy, nor the one after that, but the one after him (still with me?) can be a 'first-born' Queen and she can marry a Catholic.
Now I believe in equality even more than I believe in Europe but even I have to ask; Have we got our priorities right here?
Cameron didn’t even offer to stop on the way back to sell the Chinese the idea that the City could come up with some good products (for a fee) for channelling Chinese investor money into the bale-out fund.
We just sidelined ourselves in Europe even more (and passed up a foreign trade opportunity in our own specialist area).
Just a wee reminder as to what the question was since you seem to have become a bit sidetracked.
"I can see the sense us ensuring fluid trade with our neighbours in mainland Europe, but am not clear to what extent we would lose that trade if we did indeed leave the EU. In other words, are you saying that we benefit from preferential (or non existent) tarriffs by our EU membership which we would lose if we left the EU? So, if 50% of our international trade is with EU states, what's to say there would be any significant loss of that trade by leaving the EU? I can see the benefits of uniformity, but there must be more to it than that?"
Andy
30 October 2011, 07:18 PM
#186
Scooby Regular
True, GlesgaKiss
But replace this "If" with "when" because this one's a cert.
"If a national govt does something that spooks the markets (like walking away from our biggest trading client) capital dries up (no money for business investment), Govt debt rates shoot up (higher taxes), your currency falls (higher petrol, gas), shares drop (lower pensions), taxes are forced up (e.g. Greece). All as fast as you can click a mouse."
But replace this "If" with "when" because this one's a cert.
"If a national govt does something that spooks the markets (like walking away from our biggest trading client) capital dries up (no money for business investment), Govt debt rates shoot up (higher taxes), your currency falls (higher petrol, gas), shares drop (lower pensions), taxes are forced up (e.g. Greece). All as fast as you can click a mouse."
So, to clarify: for practicality, and to ensure no drop of any kind in living standards in the UK, we should meet the EU ransom and obey their wishes. Presumably any drop in trade would be as a result of trade tariffs put in place against us by the EU as a sort of punishment for failing to submit to their will. In all other scenarios free trade could continue uninterupted, rendering your argument, well, pointless and devoid of logic.
Very much a triumph of cowardice over principles, and of short-term avoidance of pain over long-term fairness (with regard to both justice and economics) and sustainability.
Is that an accurate description of your point of view, or is there some other, pehaps hidden, meaning to it?
I hope this post adequately conveys to you the contempt I have for your (lack of)principles.
Last edited by GlesgaKiss; 30 October 2011 at 07:21 PM.
30 October 2011, 08:18 PM
#188
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We wouldn't be 'walking away' from anything.
So, to clarify: for practicality, and to ensure no drop of any kind in living standards in the UK, we should meet the EU ransom and obey their wishes. Presumably any drop in trade would be as a result of trade tariffs put in place against us by the EU as a sort of punishment for failing to submit to their will. In all other scenarios free trade could continue uninterupted, rendering your argument, well, pointless and devoid of logic.
Very much a triumph of cowardice over principles, and of short-term avoidance of pain over long-term fairness (with regard to both justice and economics) and sustainability. ...
So, to clarify: for practicality, and to ensure no drop of any kind in living standards in the UK, we should meet the EU ransom and obey their wishes. Presumably any drop in trade would be as a result of trade tariffs put in place against us by the EU as a sort of punishment for failing to submit to their will. In all other scenarios free trade could continue uninterupted, rendering your argument, well, pointless and devoid of logic.
Very much a triumph of cowardice over principles, and of short-term avoidance of pain over long-term fairness (with regard to both justice and economics) and sustainability. ...
Dave
30 October 2011, 11:31 PM
#189
If we’re not in the EU we’re not guaranteed free movement of our exports to the EU, we don’t qualify for BMW (e.g.) investment in our factories, etc.
Sorry, but crystal ball’s in for a service at the moment so can’t say to what extent we’d lose in trade. But the EU could use market share restrictions (like we did with the 10% limit on Japanese cars) or tariffs.
I thought the metaphor was quite apt, personally.
30 October 2011, 11:35 PM
#190
We wouldn't be 'walking away' from anything.
So, to clarify: for practicality, and to ensure no drop of any kind in living standards in the UK, we should meet the EU ransom and obey their wishes. Presumably any drop in trade would be as a result of trade tariffs put in place against us by the EU as a sort of punishment for failing to submit to their will. In all other scenarios free trade could continue uninterupted, rendering your argument, well, pointless and devoid of logic.
Very much a triumph of cowardice over principles, and of short-term avoidance of pain over long-term fairness (with regard to both justice and economics) and sustainability.
Is that an accurate description of your point of view, or is there some other, pehaps hidden, meaning to it?
I hope this post adequately conveys to you the contempt I have for your (lack of)principles.
So, to clarify: for practicality, and to ensure no drop of any kind in living standards in the UK, we should meet the EU ransom and obey their wishes. Presumably any drop in trade would be as a result of trade tariffs put in place against us by the EU as a sort of punishment for failing to submit to their will. In all other scenarios free trade could continue uninterupted, rendering your argument, well, pointless and devoid of logic.
Very much a triumph of cowardice over principles, and of short-term avoidance of pain over long-term fairness (with regard to both justice and economics) and sustainability.
Is that an accurate description of your point of view, or is there some other, pehaps hidden, meaning to it?
I hope this post adequately conveys to you the contempt I have for your (lack of)principles.
We should be at the heart of Europe shaping its rules better to suit our wishes and our will.
If we opt out of the EU and disregard its regs, rules and employment laws then it won’t be long before its remaining members will say, “This isn’t a level playing field. We’re being undercut by the UK with its cheaper labour and lower standards.” It won’t take long for them to restrict our trade.
They’d be within their rights to restrict us because we’d have turned our backs on the EU’s guarantee of free movement of goods and services.
Our biggest threat if we leave is from the capital markets. This is mostly because we have massive govt debt, a large deficit, we’re in recession and we need inward investment for jobs and growth.
Right now, the market reckons we’ve got fairly good prospects and it funds our debts at fairly low charge to us. If the market thinks we’re going to gamble with national income this would change quickly.
Capital markets are private investors, pension funds, investment funds, banks, other countries all over the world. They don’t do fairness, justice, sustainability; they work on greed and fear.
Sending a clear message to the markets that we are, and will continue to be, a good sound bet is not cowardice. It’s common sense.
02 November 2011, 07:09 PM
#194
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Ensuring that our trading situation is unaffected will be the clinching argument. For leaving. We need to be damned sure about this.
If we are to have an informed vote on this issue we are going to have to weigh up both sides of the debate not just cherry pick arguments that support one side or the other
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