EU referendum vote
21 October 2011, 10:38 AM
#31
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21 October 2011, 10:42 AM
#32
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Funny as I seem to remember when this was debated under a Labour government there was universal spitting of feathers etc. about how there must be a referendum.
The answer for me is the fact that all three parties are using the party whip on their MPs to vote against a referendum which effectively means they know the people will vote against the EU if there was one otherwise what do they have to fear? So they are effectively going against the will of the people. We can't vote them out as all three main parties are the same!
The answer for me is the fact that all three parties are using the party whip on their MPs to vote against a referendum which effectively means they know the people will vote against the EU if there was one otherwise what do they have to fear? So they are effectively going against the will of the people. We can't vote them out as all three main parties are the same!
21 October 2011, 02:23 PM
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21 October 2011, 02:34 PM
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Leslie,
Exactly what did we vote these MPs in for, if not to decide on these complex matters on our behalf? The Fallacy of Popularity applies here I think; the most popular answer isn't necessarily the right answer.
X-Factor / Britain's Got Talent gets more viewers than the General Election results or the Leader's Debate shows of the last election, that should tell you something.
Exactly what did we vote these MPs in for, if not to decide on these complex matters on our behalf? The Fallacy of Popularity applies here I think; the most popular answer isn't necessarily the right answer.
X-Factor / Britain's Got Talent gets more viewers than the General Election results or the Leader's Debate shows of the last election, that should tell you something.
Cameron said that the Lisbon Treaty was unacceptible before the election and promised that we would be given a referendum on whether the Lisbon treaty ahould be accepted by the people of this country. That promise had a very large bearing on the vote that the Conservatives achieved and effectively got him into power.
Since then we have had the government knuckling under to the Eu corrupt bunch at every turn in order to avoid offending them and also to extend his popularity with the Eu heavyweights. Cameron said having achieved power that a referendum as promised was no longer necessary. He did not give an understandable reason for that.
If nothing is done we will eventually be moved into an Eu federalisation by this gutless government which effectively means giving them total control of our country.
We did not want this before the election and we certainly don't want it now!
If a government goes against the wishes of the people then we have a right to make a fuss about it.
Should federalisation be instituted before the next general election, the politicians will be home and dry and our votes will count for nothing any more...if voting has not been cancelled by then! They will be appointed instead!
Now you give us the impression that you are a clever chap who understands all the possible facts about the future, unlike the rest of us peasants! What is your take on all that? Why do so many people want us to get out of the Eu before it is too late?
Les
21 October 2011, 02:42 PM
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I take it you are not a European then Les 
One issue I do take - I think it is a huge assumption that the Conservatives got a lot of votes because of their anti-European stance and the promise of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
I think the Conservatives got moderate support (a minority Government remember) because Gordon Brown was so obnoxiously unelectable!!
One issue I do take - I think it is a huge assumption that the Conservatives got a lot of votes because of their anti-European stance and the promise of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
I think the Conservatives got moderate support (a minority Government remember) because Gordon Brown was so obnoxiously unelectable!!
21 October 2011, 02:50 PM
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One issue I do take - I think it is a huge assumption that the Conservatives got a lot of votes because of their anti-European stance and the promise of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
I think the Conservatives got moderate support (a minority Government remember) because Gordon Brown was so obnoxiously unelectable!!
I think the Conservatives got moderate support (a minority Government remember) because Gordon Brown was so obnoxiously unelectable!!
He and his party are not to be trusted any more than Labour were!
21 October 2011, 03:53 PM
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21 October 2011, 04:03 PM
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...he didn't win the election!
Last edited by Martin2005; 21 October 2011 at 04:04 PM.
21 October 2011, 04:07 PM
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I take it you are not a European then Les
One issue I do take - I think it is a huge assumption that the Conservatives got a lot of votes because of their anti-European stance and the promise of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
I think the Conservatives got moderate support (a minority Government remember) because Gordon Brown was so obnoxiously unelectable!!
One issue I do take - I think it is a huge assumption that the Conservatives got a lot of votes because of their anti-European stance and the promise of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
I think the Conservatives got moderate support (a minority Government remember) because Gordon Brown was so obnoxiously unelectable!!
I agree generally with what you say about the reasons for the way the vote went, but I certainly believe that his promise of a referendum was a significant factor as much as anything because it made him appear to be likely to stand up to the Eu.
His U turn on the referendum and his gutless acceptance of what the Eu tells us to do shows me at least that he is as two faced as any of them!
Not to be trusted!
Les
21 October 2011, 04:31 PM
#42
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Let's have a referendum. Yes we stay in Europe, no we leave. Renegotiate is a bit pointless, as it could mean a million different things to different people. Leaving isn't a big deal. We can still fully cooperate and sign agreements etc, but it would mean we kept our sovereignty. Better than being involved in mass folly IMO. Europe is on the decline, and it's not for any kind of natural or unavoidable reasons, it's directly as a result of the decisions being made by people with JTaylor's mindset.
21 October 2011, 05:06 PM
#43
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I'd like to know the divine goal that the EU is taking towards. What exactly do these leaders think we should be doing that we can't decide for ourselves?
Britain = the last bastion of individual rights and sovereignty.
Europe = collectivist hell hole.
There's nothing wrong with what we've been doing all this time, so why change it by being part of this massive bureaucracy? As I said, we can still cooperate with the rest of Europe, so what's the point?
Britain = the last bastion of individual rights and sovereignty.
Europe = collectivist hell hole.
There's nothing wrong with what we've been doing all this time, so why change it by being part of this massive bureaucracy? As I said, we can still cooperate with the rest of Europe, so what's the point?
21 October 2011, 05:17 PM
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Trout your point that the MP's are elected to make these complex decisions because the public are incapable of this task just doesnt make sense because even the MP's are not allowed to do that as the 3 party leaders have told them how to vote so what they are saying is in this democracy the actually decisions are made by a very small group of political elite who are in effect totally unaccountable through the electoral process as there are no other options to elect this isnt a democracy is it?
Sounds like democratic Soviet Union where they held elections but only the communist party could stand!
It is this sort of behaviour from the political parties that force people to riot as they cant make their view be heard any other way and stop people voting as it is pointless
Sounds like democratic Soviet Union where they held elections but only the communist party could stand!
It is this sort of behaviour from the political parties that force people to riot as they cant make their view be heard any other way and stop people voting as it is pointless
22 October 2011, 01:54 PM
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24 October 2011, 07:48 AM
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Looks like you Eurosceptic chaps might be getting your way.
Leadership crisis for Cameron!!
European Referendum
Leadership crisis for Cameron!!
European Referendum
24 October 2011, 08:04 AM
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Let's have a referendum. Yes we stay in Europe, no we leave. Renegotiate is a bit pointless, as it could mean a million different things to different people. Leaving isn't a big deal. We can still fully cooperate and sign agreements etc, but it would mean we kept our sovereignty. Better than being involved in mass folly IMO. Europe is on the decline, and it's not for any kind of natural or unavoidable reasons, it's directly as a result of the decisions being made by people with JTaylor's mindset.
24 October 2011, 09:25 AM
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Looks like you Eurosceptic chaps might be getting your way.
Leadership crisis for Cameron!!
European Referendum
Leadership crisis for Cameron!!
European Referendum
And he has fallen out with the Euro leaders at the summit too for poking his nose in too often and (he and Osborne) saying stupid things while his own country slides gently back in to recession.
Cameron and Osborne are a couple of morons quite frankly!
24 October 2011, 10:38 AM
#54
And, as we tend to vote for leaders rather than MPs here, they were voted in to lead the country to a more prosperous future as well.
If the goverment believes the nation would be worse off doing what the people want then it has an obligation to tell us so.
Regardless of what it said to get itself elected.
Economic (and consequently Social) Union is the future, with or withour Britain in it.
For my children's children's sake I'd rather we were in.
Sam
24 October 2011, 11:03 AM
#55
True, but even though the people wish to commit economic suicide?!!
And, as we tend to vote for leaders rather than MPs here, they were voted in to lead the country to a more prosperous future as well.
If the goverment believes the nation would be worse off doing what the people want then it has an obligation to tell us so.
Regardless of what it said to get itself elected.
Because Europe is the bogeyman we've been taught to fear. By the tabloids, the right, opposition parties, xenophobes, trade unions(!), flat-earthers, Little Englanders and all the other backward-looking sentimentalist who can't see the way the future's shaping.
Economic (and consequently Social) Union is the future, with or withour Britain in it.
For my children's children's sake I'd rather we were in.
Sam
And, as we tend to vote for leaders rather than MPs here, they were voted in to lead the country to a more prosperous future as well.
If the goverment believes the nation would be worse off doing what the people want then it has an obligation to tell us so.
Regardless of what it said to get itself elected.
Because Europe is the bogeyman we've been taught to fear. By the tabloids, the right, opposition parties, xenophobes, trade unions(!), flat-earthers, Little Englanders and all the other backward-looking sentimentalist who can't see the way the future's shaping.
Economic (and consequently Social) Union is the future, with or withour Britain in it.
For my children's children's sake I'd rather we were in.
Sam
. The whole EU project has become corrupt and rotten to the core. Countries that were economically unfit to join the EU were ushered in with smoke and mirrors just to make up the numbers, and now those Countries are imploding one by one, it's left to the rest of us to foot the bill.
24 October 2011, 11:27 AM
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Yes because being in the EU has enriched us both culturally and economically so far hasn't it . The whole EU project has become corrupt and rotten to the core. Countries that were economically unfit to join the EU were ushered in with smoke and mirrors just to make up the numbers, and now those Countries are imploding one by one, it's left to the rest of us to foot the bill.
. The whole EU project has become corrupt and rotten to the core. Countries that were economically unfit to join the EU were ushered in with smoke and mirrors just to make up the numbers, and now those Countries are imploding one by one, it's left to the rest of us to foot the bill.The Euro can only work if use is restricted to trade between strong economies such as Germany, UK, France (?) and perhaps one or two others.
I can't see this mess being resolved without banks and Eurozone taxpayers losing a shed load of money
dl
24 October 2011, 12:27 PM
#57
Yes because being in the EU has enriched us both culturally and economically so far hasn't it . The whole EU project has become corrupt and rotten to the core. Countries that were economically unfit to join the EU were ushered in with smoke and mirrors just to make up the numbers, and now those Countries are imploding one by one, it's left to the rest of us to foot the bill.
. The whole EU project has become corrupt and rotten to the core. Countries that were economically unfit to join the EU were ushered in with smoke and mirrors just to make up the numbers, and now those Countries are imploding one by one, it's left to the rest of us to foot the bill.No economic benefit?
When Toyota opened their car plant in Derby in wasn't just the great weather, beer and flexible labour market they wanted. It was access to the the EU market. Now they employ 1,000s, build 300,000 vehicles p.a. and ship most of them to Europe.
Ditto Nissan, Honda, Tata (Jaguar Land Rover).
It was the Dutch company Chorus that saved the rump of British Steel.
The UK is the financial centre of Europe funnelling the money business runs on between Europe, US, Far East and the world. When we leave the centre will shift to Frankfurt further jeopardising jobs in a sector that makes up 12.5% of our ecomony.
May Day bank holiday, cheaper beer, French food, Spanish holidays, Italian design, Ferraris, German engineering, Abba (!) ... what do you mean not cuturally enriched?
I could go on .... but facts are so boring!
It costs us less than 1% of our GDP (yes, that's 45 million per day) to join a club that provides 40% of all of our trade. If my local Chamber of Commerce gave me that proportion of business for that percentage of fee I'd be more than happy (& much better off).
The EU isn't perfect. It needs a lot of work. But it's 501 million strong market gives us more opportunity than our 67 million home market ever could.
We really need to think this through. There's a lot at stake.
24 October 2011, 12:32 PM
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I think that Cameron will be seriously damaged both in the country by putting a 3 line whip on the Conservative MP's when it should certainly be a free vote by any standard, and also in his party for the same reason.
Those of us who want the refendum will have to hope that enough Conservatives ignore the whips.
Les
Those of us who want the refendum will have to hope that enough Conservatives ignore the whips.
Les
24 October 2011, 01:21 PM
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...and this is what I found...
Originally Posted by Conservative Party Manifesto
We will be positive members of the European Union but we are clear that there should be no further extension of the EU’s power over the Uk without the British people’s consent. We will ensure that by law no future government can hand over areas of power to the EU or join the Euro without a referendum of the British people. We will work to bring back key powers over legal rights, criminal justice and social and employment legislation to the Uk.
...We will never allow Britain to slide into a Federal Europe. Labour’s ratification of the Lisbon Treaty without the consent of the british people has been a betrayal of this country’s democratic traditions. in government, we will put in place a number of measures to make sure this shameful episode can never happen again.
The Lisbon treaty contains a number of so- called ‘ratchet clauses’, which allow the powers of the EU to expand in the future without a new treaty. We do not believe that any of these ‘ratchet clauses’ should be used to hand over more powers from britain to the eU. So a Conservative government will not agree to the UK’s participation in the establishment of a European Public Prosecutor’s Office or permit its jurisdiction over the UK. We will change the 1972 act so that an act of Parliament would be required before any ‘ratchet clause’ could be used. additionally, the use of a major ‘ratchet clause’ which amounted to the transfer of an area of power to the eU would be subject to a referendum.
...We will never allow Britain to slide into a Federal Europe. Labour’s ratification of the Lisbon Treaty without the consent of the british people has been a betrayal of this country’s democratic traditions. in government, we will put in place a number of measures to make sure this shameful episode can never happen again.
The Lisbon treaty contains a number of so- called ‘ratchet clauses’, which allow the powers of the EU to expand in the future without a new treaty. We do not believe that any of these ‘ratchet clauses’ should be used to hand over more powers from britain to the eU. So a Conservative government will not agree to the UK’s participation in the establishment of a European Public Prosecutor’s Office or permit its jurisdiction over the UK. We will change the 1972 act so that an act of Parliament would be required before any ‘ratchet clause’ could be used. additionally, the use of a major ‘ratchet clause’ which amounted to the transfer of an area of power to the eU would be subject to a referendum.
So I am guessing these accusations of U turns and referendum commitments must relate to someone else's election manifesto then. Or are some of these posters listening to what they wanted to hear?
24 October 2011, 01:33 PM
#60
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See what I mean?
No economic benefit?
When Toyota opened their car plant in Derby in wasn't just the great weather, beer and flexible labour market they wanted. It was access to the the EU market. Now they employ 1,000s, build 300,000 vehicles p.a. and ship most of them to Europe.
Ditto Nissan, Honda, Tata (Jaguar Land Rover).
It was the Dutch company Chorus that saved the rump of British Steel.
The UK is the financial centre of Europe funnelling the money business runs on between Europe, US, Far East and the world. When we leave the centre will shift to Frankfurt further jeopardising jobs in a sector that makes up 12.5% of our ecomony.
May Day bank holiday, cheaper beer, French food, Spanish holidays, Italian design, Ferraris, German engineering, Abba (!) ... what do you mean not cuturally enriched?
I could go on .... but facts are so boring!
It costs us less than 1% of our GDP (yes, that's 45 million per day) to join a club that provides 40% of all of our trade. If my local Chamber of Commerce gave me that proportion of business for that percentage of fee I'd be more than happy (& much better off).
The EU isn't perfect. It needs a lot of work. But it's 501 million strong market gives us more opportunity than our 67 million home market ever could.
We really need to think this through. There's a lot at stake.
No economic benefit?
When Toyota opened their car plant in Derby in wasn't just the great weather, beer and flexible labour market they wanted. It was access to the the EU market. Now they employ 1,000s, build 300,000 vehicles p.a. and ship most of them to Europe.
Ditto Nissan, Honda, Tata (Jaguar Land Rover).
It was the Dutch company Chorus that saved the rump of British Steel.
The UK is the financial centre of Europe funnelling the money business runs on between Europe, US, Far East and the world. When we leave the centre will shift to Frankfurt further jeopardising jobs in a sector that makes up 12.5% of our ecomony.
May Day bank holiday, cheaper beer, French food, Spanish holidays, Italian design, Ferraris, German engineering, Abba (!) ... what do you mean not cuturally enriched?
I could go on .... but facts are so boring!
It costs us less than 1% of our GDP (yes, that's 45 million per day) to join a club that provides 40% of all of our trade. If my local Chamber of Commerce gave me that proportion of business for that percentage of fee I'd be more than happy (& much better off).
The EU isn't perfect. It needs a lot of work. But it's 501 million strong market gives us more opportunity than our 67 million home market ever could.
We really need to think this through. There's a lot at stake.