f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

School trip red tape 'to be cut' by Michael Gove

Is this an indicator that we are finally going to see a move towards getting rid of some of the nany state built up over the last 30 years.

I bloody hope so.

Of course the teachers' unions are up in arms about it, but no surprise there.

Now I just hope the government stands resolutely firm over this and the teachers' pensions for that matter. We need to see a governemnt with proper spine again and now they have a chance to show that!

tony de wonderful

It's only token. The Corporate sector is also saturated with HSE ******* who are building their empires.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

What Gove says, and what he and the government actually DO are poles apart.

He and they have been announcing change for ages, but all they have done is tightened the noose.

They are a joke: they announce the abolition of the GTC and it's STILL going strong, still fleecing teachers and now taking the government to court to stop itself being abolished........using money ripped off from teachers. And Gove wants us to se him as a strong man?

TinyTim

iTrader: (3)

The bloke's a fool, that much is clear. If anything, inviting parents to run the schools on Thursday displays his complete detachment from reality.

The Zohan

+!

bigsinky

read in the paper where the the fire service in san fransisco let a man drown in san fransisco bay because they had no cold water diving gear. H+S wouldn't let them rescue him so the fire chief said no.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ater-gear.html


then we have the other end of the spectrum where that girl ran into a burning house last week to rescue a small boy.

TopBanana

Yes. Unfortunately it takes a while to unwind all the bullsh1t the loony left have instituted. By the time it starts getting sensible again, our british comrades will vote Labour back in. And so the cycle continues.

GlesgaKiss

Reminds me of the one a while ago here (i'm sure it was up in scotland) where a woman died down a well while the emergency services stood there waiting on a risk assessment from further up the chain.

hodgy0_2

these examples are nothing to do with the nanny state (would hardly call the US a nanny state)

they are a simple failure of common sense and empathy

The Zohan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/7006412.stm

Jordon Lyon leapt into the water in Wigan, Greater Manchester, after his eight-year-old stepsister Bethany got into difficulties on 3 May.

Two anglers jumped in and saved Bethany but Jordon became submerged.

The inquest into his death heard the PCSOs did not rescue him as they were not trained to deal with the incident.

All they seemed to be 'trained' to do is stand around with gangs of yoofs and make friends with them!

GlesgaKiss

Believe it or not that's a different one ^^

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Sorry, but this mess is not just of Labour's making. For instance ask anyone who ran a construction company in the late 80s and early 90s about the rafts of health and safety driven rules that were introduced then. It has been going on for 30 years or so at least.

GlesgaKiss

That's true. My Dad was forever whinging about health and safety making life difficult for him, and that was all under the conservatives.

JTaylor

You'll have to significantly modify the litigation culture first.

hodgy0_2

ridiculous -- the scale of deaths in the construction industry in the 60's and 70's was a disgrace

or maybe you all think the answer is to have chinese levels of H&E - where hundreds of thousands die in industrail accidents every year

only in the UK can the dramatic fall in deaths at work can be seen as a failure

http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/history/index.htm

pathetic -- and no wonder we are going down the tubes

GlesgaKiss

I know what you mean, but there is a line that can be crossed where common sense should take over, and that was crossed a long time ago with H&S. Honestly, Hodgy, you should see some of the things you have to do if you go by the book - which you have to on anything but the smallest site. It would make you p*ss yourself.

Just one I can think of now is putting harnesses on and getting in a cherry picker to put in bolts you could reach on your toes. The best bit was the harnesses from the main contractor were longer than the drop to the ground.

But that's nothing compared to the chaos on a big industrial build. Every day is a constant struggle against regulations that slow you down to a snail's pace. The job is about 80% procedures and 20% construction.

The money wasted and cost added on to builds is ridiculous. Can understand where you're coming from but there is a middle ground.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

You need to get a sense of perspective. Have you run a construction company for the last 30 years then? Seen the changes first hand? Know what you are talking about? Doubt it.

Of course we don't want people dying in the work place but as Glasga says when the job is 80% procedure and 20% work the pendulum has swung way too far the other way.

Mate of mine had an employee who had a crane accident. Every method statement, risk assessment had been done. The lad had been on every course he needed to. He still got hurt. **** happens! Trouble is the job in question was then shut down for over a week while the jobsworths from the HSE did the slowest job they could of investigating it and the lad eventually sought compensation from the company thanks to some ambulance chasing **** of a lawyer.... 2 years of legal wrangling and HSE involvement with all the time and expense detracting from running the compnay to find no case to answer.

Yeah what a great way to be Your utopia no doubt!!!

hodgy0_2

as I said in my previous post it is mostly common sense

of course a whole industry has been built around it, but this has more to do with that fact our economy is built on the "a lot of chiefs and not many Indians" model

because you earn a lot more money walking around with a clipboard telling other people what to do than you do by actually doing any productive work yourself.

GlesgaKiss

I think they've been necessitated by legislation though. I totally agree though, managers like that are the bane of a working man's life. They do nothing but annoy. Most of them are unable to have a good working relationship with the employees too, because they can't talk to them like human beings and they lack respect... pretty much by definition since they walk around doing nothing but watching all day.

DYK

I have a mate who drives a truck and he was telling me a few months back he had to deliver some materials to a building site,its situated near some flats houses etc.Anyhow he parked up and reported to the site,waits a few mins while they get the forklift etc to see to him.Then he was told he couldn't reverse/drive his truck onto the site,he had to park at the end of the road about 200 yards away (it was a public road with cars parked either side)while a Telemaster forklift had to come off site drive along the road while another site worker had to run in front of the forklift to watch out for traffic etc,then get to the truck to off load the goods(traffic had to be stopped each time while the forklift was off loading from the trailer)then drive 200 yards back along the road to the site,drop the materials and back to the truck again and again.When my mate asked the fork driver why are they having to unload him this way,he was told the Health and safety on site are just complete arseholes,they won't let any large trucks on site to deliver,so this is how we have to do it

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

It's just insanity isn't it? Large trucks not allowed to delivery to building site??? LOL! Next it will be no power tools allowed on site as they are dangerous!!! It would be funny if it wasn't so serious! HSE ar5eholes are like the judges in the ECHR... I am sure they are playing games to see how far they can push people until someone says 'enough'

tony de wonderful

Well I don't think it is either/or with health and safety.

I see a lot of good stuff going on in industry, but also there is a tendency to disempower peoples brains and initiative with this top down 'parental' approach and excess of process/paper work.

Also there is a lot of fear driven stuff on site, where to have a run in with HSE is almost worse than anything....people just seem to switch off their brains and instead of acting safely it is more important to look like you are acting safely. Massive difference.

I've never seen such hypocritical jobsworths as HSE people in my industry. Some of the most talentless and useless people but somehow have a license to act as everyone superviser.

GlesgaKiss

Exactly. Apart from anything else, construction is inherently dangerous. You can't eliminate all danger, and if anyone did attempt to, they would basically bring the industry to a halt. It might sound terrible, but in the statistics posted above by Hodgy, a fatal injury rate of 2.9 in 100,000 is actually a minute number and, considering the work being done and the mistakes humans make, it's actually pretty good.

This is the same government that sends hundreds to die in Afghanistan, and it wants to protect people making a living in construction from their own decisions!?

hodgy0_2

I am half expecting someone to say "kids aren’t allowed to play conkers" because of elf and safety

Every time these stories -- written by lazy journo's, get the simple light of truth shone on them they disintegrate into the crap they are, and have in realty nothing to do the H&S, but hey that wouldn’t sell papers, and people are thick enough to believe them

I bet most of the stories above re backing lorries into building sites etc have more to do with local council regulations or the road traffic act than H&S

Nothing is perfect in life, I am sure anomalies exist in the application of H&S, and we all hate rules when they affect us

but if you really think this countries problem stem from too much H&S then I am afraid you are part of the problem

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Are you a teacher?

hodgy0_2

not a fvcking chance

but i hear they have cracking pensions

DYK

No it was deffo health and safety,i asked him again about it and some guys were saying to him how site foreman don't run building sites anymore health and safety do.Funny enough he told me he was turned away from another building site about the other day in Birmingham city,had to drop some 1 ton jumbo bags of gravel off.Was turned away and had to drive back to the company yard so they could off load the truck and re load it on 2 rigid trucks,as arctics were not allowed on site.delivery was made 3 days later

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

This is not that uncommon. I quite often specify rigid trucks to site, due to the fact they are tight or that there is scaffold overhanging onto the road/access or we might have dug up part of the road etc.

H&S is sometimes a good thing but other times plain ridiculous.

Aaron

Leslie

It is unfortunate that the "nanny state" attitude is making people unable to think for themselves any more, they feel they cannot do anything without guidance any more, and if something unexpected happened, they would not be able to deal with it half the time.

In this case, teachers used to be trusted as educated to take care of children and with common sense to be well able to monitor them and to keep them safe. Piles of red tape do nothing but confuse and cause people to lose all confidence in dealing with a problem on their own account.

The PC plonking controllers have far too high an opinion of themselves.

Les