Prosecute or not?
19 October 2008, 09:23 AM
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Prosecute or not?
That desperately tragic case of the Rugby lad left paralysed and taken to Switzerland by his parents to end his suffering?
It's not clear whether they have actually broken UK law but they probably have. Certainly it takes the subject to the next level as the kid was not old or terminally ill although he, so the reports say, wanted out.
But I did see a wheelchair bound chap who, in his own circumstances, had come to terms with his disabled life and was reasonably content.
So what do you think?
I don't think I would have the courage, if that's the word, to do it to my own child unless he/she was in severe and constant pain. Even then........
dl
It's not clear whether they have actually broken UK law but they probably have. Certainly it takes the subject to the next level as the kid was not old or terminally ill although he, so the reports say, wanted out.
But I did see a wheelchair bound chap who, in his own circumstances, had come to terms with his disabled life and was reasonably content.
So what do you think?
I don't think I would have the courage, if that's the word, to do it to my own child unless he/she was in severe and constant pain. Even then........
dl
19 October 2008, 09:51 AM
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Its a tough call, as we really don't know what happens behind closed doors.
Parents always want the best for their children regardless and dont want to see them suffer, but sometimes parents think they know best regardless of your age and wishes.
Hopefully they where / are acting purely in the interest of their child and he has (strongly) expressed the wish to end his suffereing.
Richard
Parents always want the best for their children regardless and dont want to see them suffer, but sometimes parents think they know best regardless of your age and wishes.
Hopefully they where / are acting purely in the interest of their child and he has (strongly) expressed the wish to end his suffereing.
Richard
19 October 2008, 10:18 AM
#5
This euthanasia thing worries me.
I am concerned that, if it becomes legal, it will become an "expectation" when someone becomes seriously unwell.
Mum passed away a few years ago. She had bowel cancer and had trouble keeping food down. When she was put under general anaesthetic for the operation, she vomited. Unfortunately she was in a physical position where she breathed in and ingested the acids. Her lungs did not recover.
In this situation, even if we could have saved her, she would have been profoundly brain damaged due to the lack of oxygen getting into her blood stream. The plug was only pulled when it became clear that mum had finally suffered a heart attack and there was no longer any chance of a recovery.
I held her hand from the moment she got back from surgery until the moment she died, in those few hours I had the most the most intense feelings that I have ever felt.
I'm not one for mumbo jumbo but if you have ever seen the film "The Green Mile", it was a bit like that, As my mum passed - I got an intense, vivid surreal sensation that made me believe that her spirit will always live on.
Sadly, a few weeks after mum died, a cure for this particular kind of cancer was approved for use in the NHS.
BITTER - NO
SAD - YES
Mum (Patrica Hilary Jordan) still lives on in my memory and the memory of many others.
I only hope I'll make the same impact - If only for my bad jokes.
Patricia Hilary Jordan : 1942 - 1994 RIP
I am concerned that, if it becomes legal, it will become an "expectation" when someone becomes seriously unwell.
Mum passed away a few years ago. She had bowel cancer and had trouble keeping food down. When she was put under general anaesthetic for the operation, she vomited. Unfortunately she was in a physical position where she breathed in and ingested the acids. Her lungs did not recover.
In this situation, even if we could have saved her, she would have been profoundly brain damaged due to the lack of oxygen getting into her blood stream. The plug was only pulled when it became clear that mum had finally suffered a heart attack and there was no longer any chance of a recovery.
I held her hand from the moment she got back from surgery until the moment she died, in those few hours I had the most the most intense feelings that I have ever felt.
I'm not one for mumbo jumbo but if you have ever seen the film "The Green Mile", it was a bit like that, As my mum passed - I got an intense, vivid surreal sensation that made me believe that her spirit will always live on.
Sadly, a few weeks after mum died, a cure for this particular kind of cancer was approved for use in the NHS.
BITTER - NO
SAD - YES
Mum (Patrica Hilary Jordan) still lives on in my memory and the memory of many others.
I only hope I'll make the same impact - If only for my bad jokes.
Patricia Hilary Jordan : 1942 - 1994 RIP
19 October 2008, 10:26 AM
#6
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This euthanasia thing worries me.
I am concerned that, if it becomes legal, it will become an "expectation" when someone becomes seriously unwell.
Mum passed away a few years ago. She had bowel cancer and had trouble keeping food down. When she was put under general anaesthetic for the operation, she vomited. Unfortunately she was in a physical position where she breathed in and ingested the acids. Her lungs did not recover.
In this situation, even if we could have saved her, she would have been profoundly brain damaged due to the lack of oxygen getting into her blood stream. The plug was only pulled when it became clear that mum had finally suffered a heart attack and there was no longer any chance of a recovery.
I held her hand from the moment she got back from surgery until the moment she died, in those few hours I had the most the most intense feelings that I have ever felt.
I'm not one for mumbo jumbo but if you have ever seen the film "The Green Mile", it was a bit like that, As my mum passed - I got an intense, vivid surreal sensation that made me believe that her spirit will always live on.
Sadly, a few weeks after mum died, a cure for this particular kind of cancer was approved for use in the NHS.
BITTER - NO
SAD - YES
Mum (Patrica Hilary Jordan) still lives on in my memory and the memory of many others.
I only hope I'll make the same impact - If only for my bad jokes.
Patricia Hilary Jordan : 1942 - 1994 RIP
I am concerned that, if it becomes legal, it will become an "expectation" when someone becomes seriously unwell.
Mum passed away a few years ago. She had bowel cancer and had trouble keeping food down. When she was put under general anaesthetic for the operation, she vomited. Unfortunately she was in a physical position where she breathed in and ingested the acids. Her lungs did not recover.
In this situation, even if we could have saved her, she would have been profoundly brain damaged due to the lack of oxygen getting into her blood stream. The plug was only pulled when it became clear that mum had finally suffered a heart attack and there was no longer any chance of a recovery.
I held her hand from the moment she got back from surgery until the moment she died, in those few hours I had the most the most intense feelings that I have ever felt.
I'm not one for mumbo jumbo but if you have ever seen the film "The Green Mile", it was a bit like that, As my mum passed - I got an intense, vivid surreal sensation that made me believe that her spirit will always live on.
Sadly, a few weeks after mum died, a cure for this particular kind of cancer was approved for use in the NHS.
BITTER - NO
SAD - YES
Mum (Patrica Hilary Jordan) still lives on in my memory and the memory of many others.
I only hope I'll make the same impact - If only for my bad jokes.
Patricia Hilary Jordan : 1942 - 1994 RIP
Thank you.
19 October 2008, 12:29 PM
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He was 23, a great sportsman and intelligent by all accounts. He couldn't face the thought of living the rest of his life being dependent on someone, every hour of every day of that 'existence'.
He was destined to be somebody in the Rugby world, he wanted that and knew that he could be. He was a big, strapping lad that had presence, yet overnight found himself paralysed from the neck down and confined to a wheelchair due to an accident.
Other people suddenly see you as a different person, almost as a second class citizen, meaning you have to constantly be aware they often talk to you like you're 5 and think you were born like it and you were never once somebody or could have been. He'd no doubt experienced that and didn't want to face the rest of his existence like it.
Never competing again in the sport you love or walking again is something nobody can comprehend unless they are faced with it. That's not to mention the other 'hidden' issues that Joe Public never see or know about, like being able to sit up alone, toilet, shower, dress, shave, clean teeth, turn over in bed, lift up to relieve pressure, constant pain, spasms, temperature control, breathing, etc etc.........
He did the right thing for himself and his parents had to assist him to get there due to his paralysis. Their role in this would have been the hardest thing they'll ever do but they took him there because he wanted to go.
I sincerely hope that the parents are left alone and nothing more comes of it.
RIP Dan.
He was destined to be somebody in the Rugby world, he wanted that and knew that he could be. He was a big, strapping lad that had presence, yet overnight found himself paralysed from the neck down and confined to a wheelchair due to an accident.
Other people suddenly see you as a different person, almost as a second class citizen, meaning you have to constantly be aware they often talk to you like you're 5 and think you were born like it and you were never once somebody or could have been. He'd no doubt experienced that and didn't want to face the rest of his existence like it.
Never competing again in the sport you love or walking again is something nobody can comprehend unless they are faced with it. That's not to mention the other 'hidden' issues that Joe Public never see or know about, like being able to sit up alone, toilet, shower, dress, shave, clean teeth, turn over in bed, lift up to relieve pressure, constant pain, spasms, temperature control, breathing, etc etc.........
He did the right thing for himself and his parents had to assist him to get there due to his paralysis. Their role in this would have been the hardest thing they'll ever do but they took him there because he wanted to go.
I sincerely hope that the parents are left alone and nothing more comes of it.
RIP Dan.
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19 October 2008, 12:36 PM
#8
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He was 23, a great sportsman and intelligent by all accounts. He couldn't face the thought of living the rest of his life being dependent on someone, every hour of every day of that 'existence'.
He was destined to be somebody in the Rugby world, he wanted that and knew that he could be. He was a big, strapping lad that had presence, yet overnight found himself paralysed from the neck down and confined to a wheelchair due to an accident.
Other people suddenly see you as a different person, almost as a second class citizen, meaning you have to constantly be aware they often talk to you like you're 5 and think you were born like it and you were never once somebody or could have been. He'd no doubt experienced that and didn't want to face the rest of his existence like it.
Never competing again in the sport you love or walking again is something nobody can comprehend unless they are faced with it. That's not to mention the other 'hidden' issues that Joe Public never see or know about, like being able to sit up alone, toilet, shower, dress, shave, clean teeth, turn over in bed, lift up to relieve pressure, constant pain, spasms, temperature control, breathing, etc etc.........
He did the right thing for himself and his parents had to assist him to get there due to his paralysis. Their role in this would have been the hardest thing they'll ever do but they took him there because he wanted to go.
I sincerely hope that the parents are left alone and nothing more comes of it.
RIP Dan.
He was destined to be somebody in the Rugby world, he wanted that and knew that he could be. He was a big, strapping lad that had presence, yet overnight found himself paralysed from the neck down and confined to a wheelchair due to an accident.
Other people suddenly see you as a different person, almost as a second class citizen, meaning you have to constantly be aware they often talk to you like you're 5 and think you were born like it and you were never once somebody or could have been. He'd no doubt experienced that and didn't want to face the rest of his existence like it.
Never competing again in the sport you love or walking again is something nobody can comprehend unless they are faced with it. That's not to mention the other 'hidden' issues that Joe Public never see or know about, like being able to sit up alone, toilet, shower, dress, shave, clean teeth, turn over in bed, lift up to relieve pressure, constant pain, spasms, temperature control, breathing, etc etc.........
He did the right thing for himself and his parents had to assist him to get there due to his paralysis. Their role in this would have been the hardest thing they'll ever do but they took him there because he wanted to go.
I sincerely hope that the parents are left alone and nothing more comes of it.
RIP Dan.
Lets hope for the best for his relatives/friends.
19 October 2008, 12:40 PM
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Its funny really, we have the right to live, but technically not the right to die
Whats the difference between indicating not to be resuscitated on a hospital
form, or give me an overdose of morphine?
Mart
Whats the difference between indicating not to be resuscitated on a hospital
form, or give me an overdose of morphine?
Mart
19 October 2008, 01:04 PM
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Spoon - What's missing from your commentary is that people and circumstances change. Of course for the poor lad his life was rugby, work, girlfriends and everything that goes with being a growing lad. So what an absolute nightmare for all that to be destroyed.
But his attitudes and priorities would have changed as he grew up and he might have come to terms with the situation as others seem to have done. No one will know.
And now if his parents open the paper in 5 years and there is a headline "Major breakthrough in spinal injury treatment" how will they feel?
I just don't know. dl
But his attitudes and priorities would have changed as he grew up and he might have come to terms with the situation as others seem to have done. No one will know.
And now if his parents open the paper in 5 years and there is a headline "Major breakthrough in spinal injury treatment" how will they feel?
I just don't know. dl
19 October 2008, 01:41 PM
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Spoon - What's missing from your commentary is that people and circumstances change. Of course for the poor lad his life was rugby, work, girlfriends and everything that goes with being a growing lad. So what an absolute nightmare for all that to be destroyed.
But his attitudes and priorities would have changed as he grew up and he might have come to terms with the situation as others seem to have done. No one will know.
And now if his parents open the paper in 5 years and there is a headline "Major breakthrough in spinal injury treatment" how will they feel?
I just don't know. dl
But his attitudes and priorities would have changed as he grew up and he might have come to terms with the situation as others seem to have done. No one will know.
And now if his parents open the paper in 5 years and there is a headline "Major breakthrough in spinal injury treatment" how will they feel?
I just don't know. dl
He might have come to terms with it a little better as he got older, despite things getting worse physically. However, he chose not to at the point he did.
Major breakthroughs in spinal injury treatment has been promised for 20 years that I know of. If a cure was found tomorrow do you think sufferers will suddenly be able to get up and walk and compete like before? There would be rehabilitation and physio necessary like never before. Oh and that's for those that haven't gone too far past the point of no return.
He lived and died for today because he chose to, rightly or wrongly in some peoples eyes.
19 October 2008, 04:37 PM
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Living the rest of your life with just being able to move your head?
If it was me, I'd like to be put to sleep too. What quality of life will you ever have? You have to have someone Bath you, feed you, wipe your *rse, scratch your nose etc etc.
Given the option of that or death.............. Roll my leave up and get on with it.
Whole family has said that given a situation where one of us is on life support (for whatever reason) and the option is to live the rest of your life a vegetable, or turn the machines off, were all agreed to switch the machines off.
Morbid? Maybe
If it was me, I'd like to be put to sleep too. What quality of life will you ever have? You have to have someone Bath you, feed you, wipe your *rse, scratch your nose etc etc.
Given the option of that or death.............. Roll my leave up and get on with it.
Whole family has said that given a situation where one of us is on life support (for whatever reason) and the option is to live the rest of your life a vegetable, or turn the machines off, were all agreed to switch the machines off.
Morbid? Maybe
19 October 2008, 04:56 PM
#13
I think if any people actually give thought to prosecuting them then they should hang their heads in shame. I hope my family would help me like that if I was in a similar position
19 October 2008, 05:43 PM
#14
If he had been able-bodied then he would have been perfectly capable of committing suicide - although obviously he probably wouldn't want to. But because of his disability he lacked the physical ability to do so. That meant he needed some one else to help him do something any non-disabled person is entirely legally able to do. So are we going to say that if you are disabled then we are going to remove your right to commit suicide? Either everyone has the right, or no-one does. If you have right, but not the capability I see no reason why someone can't help you as long as certain safeguards are met, such as an interview with a judge with no-one else present.
M
M
19 October 2008, 06:21 PM
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19 October 2008, 06:40 PM
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What else can be done in situation like this? Nothing is the answer and that's why the whole case should be dropped.
19 October 2008, 06:52 PM
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Living the rest of your life with just being able to move your head?
If it was me, I'd like to be put to sleep too. What quality of life will you ever have? You have to have someone Bath you, feed you, wipe your *rse, scratch your nose etc etc.
Given the option of that or death.............. Roll my leave up and get on with it.
Whole family has said that given a situation where one of us is on life support (for whatever reason) and the option is to live the rest of your life a vegetable, or turn the machines off, were all agreed to switch the machines off.
Morbid? Maybe
If it was me, I'd like to be put to sleep too. What quality of life will you ever have? You have to have someone Bath you, feed you, wipe your *rse, scratch your nose etc etc.
Given the option of that or death.............. Roll my leave up and get on with it.
Whole family has said that given a situation where one of us is on life support (for whatever reason) and the option is to live the rest of your life a vegetable, or turn the machines off, were all agreed to switch the machines off.
Morbid? Maybe
People do live on in a fashion and even get to drive a vehicle. It's whether or not that 'standard' of existence is OK by the person concerned and in the case being discussed here, it wasn't.
Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is I don't think he had time to wait around for his multi-million pound compensation payout, leave it to his family, and then do it. He wanted out now!
19 October 2008, 07:38 PM
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Perhaps we should move on. Laissez faire it is then. dl
19 October 2008, 08:38 PM
#20
Cant blame the lad, its all a bit taboo but he wanted to cash in his chips and not put up with that, I don't think I could due to having kids and would have to stick it out.
We always tend to try and be overly positive and dress death related matters up, the lad was fooked really and he new it only to well, Rugby types tend to be pretty matter of fact, he could have held out for a cure, like poor old Christopher Reeves but he cut his losses.
We do as a society tend to prolong life at all costs, because thats how we do it, even if there is no quality of life, sometimes perhaps its better this way but you dont know until you are in that situation how you will react or feel. I feel sorry for the family in this case, how weird and painful would be flying to Switzerland with one of your kids to be Euthanised, I remember taking the Dog earlier this year and that wasnt fun, one of the kids, it doesn't bear thinking about.
We always tend to try and be overly positive and dress death related matters up, the lad was fooked really and he new it only to well, Rugby types tend to be pretty matter of fact, he could have held out for a cure, like poor old Christopher Reeves but he cut his losses.
We do as a society tend to prolong life at all costs, because thats how we do it, even if there is no quality of life, sometimes perhaps its better this way but you dont know until you are in that situation how you will react or feel. I feel sorry for the family in this case, how weird and painful would be flying to Switzerland with one of your kids to be Euthanised, I remember taking the Dog earlier this year and that wasnt fun, one of the kids, it doesn't bear thinking about.
19 October 2008, 08:46 PM
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I tend to agree with your pragmatic approach but you can't just give the green light to where, for example, a set or parents dealing with a quadriplegic child have a massive moment of depression and, in a low moment, decide on the Swiss option.
Perhaps we should move on. Laissez faire it is then. dl
Perhaps we should move on. Laissez faire it is then. dl
You highlight my point exactly of being talked to and thought of as a 5 year old, unfortunately.
19 October 2008, 08:56 PM
#22
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Living the rest of your life with just being able to move your head?
If it was me, I'd like to be put to sleep too. What quality of life will you ever have? You have to have someone Bath you, feed you, wipe your *rse, scratch your nose etc etc.
Given the option of that or death.............. Roll my leave up and get on with it.
Whole family has said that given a situation where one of us is on life support (for whatever reason) and the option is to live the rest of your life a vegetable, or turn the machines off, were all agreed to switch the machines off.
Morbid? Maybe
If it was me, I'd like to be put to sleep too. What quality of life will you ever have? You have to have someone Bath you, feed you, wipe your *rse, scratch your nose etc etc.
Given the option of that or death.............. Roll my leave up and get on with it.
Whole family has said that given a situation where one of us is on life support (for whatever reason) and the option is to live the rest of your life a vegetable, or turn the machines off, were all agreed to switch the machines off.
Morbid? Maybe
Told my wife to do the same thing if i'm ever in that situation
20 October 2008, 12:55 PM
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Seems like its been the TV topic of today so far, with the usual mis-quotes of the parents involved too.
The Mother mentioned her son didn't want to live a second class existence. No mention was made to live as a second class citizen, as mentioned on TV, they are 2 completely different things.
The Mother mentioned her son didn't want to live a second class existence. No mention was made to live as a second class citizen, as mentioned on TV, they are 2 completely different things.
20 October 2008, 02:47 PM
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20 October 2008, 03:00 PM
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What a ridiculous comment. His parents have suffered quite enough already, they did what they did out of unconditional love for their son. The last thing they need now is the pressure from the media, the public and the courts.
20 October 2008, 03:10 PM
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Pains me to say this, but Spoons got it spot on
20 October 2008, 03:17 PM
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Horrible situation, won't comment on the specifics as I don't know enough about the case.
I do believe that each of us has the right to choose what we would regard as a minimum acceptable quality of life and that our wishes should be respected if -god forbid- it ever gets to that stage. So, I certainly can't condemn euthanasia. BUT you'd have to be very myopic not to see the dangers associated with legalising it.
We may find it utterly distasteful, but there are individuals who would request that someone be allowed to die for reasons nothing whatsoever to do with a genuine concern for the well being of the poor soul concerned. There are also issues associated with informed consent etc...
I think this needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis, which is one good thing that occurs as a result of the law standing as it currently does. However, the problem is that this kind of discussion too often occurs on an adhoc basis after the event. This raises the question of whether it is fair to criminalise the loved ones of someone who is terminally ill, with no prospects of recovery and whose quality of life has diminished to the point where they have made a rational decision to want to die with dignity?
Personally I don't think to assist in a suicide should invariably be a crime (so in that respect, I'd argue for a change in the law), but I do think that whether euthanasia is to be an option should be decided by on a case by case basis within the legal system with the appropriate medical professionals BEFORE any action is not taken. It's not something that should have to be argued after the event when it's all too late.
Ns04
I do believe that each of us has the right to choose what we would regard as a minimum acceptable quality of life and that our wishes should be respected if -god forbid- it ever gets to that stage. So, I certainly can't condemn euthanasia. BUT you'd have to be very myopic not to see the dangers associated with legalising it.
We may find it utterly distasteful, but there are individuals who would request that someone be allowed to die for reasons nothing whatsoever to do with a genuine concern for the well being of the poor soul concerned. There are also issues associated with informed consent etc...
I think this needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis, which is one good thing that occurs as a result of the law standing as it currently does. However, the problem is that this kind of discussion too often occurs on an adhoc basis after the event. This raises the question of whether it is fair to criminalise the loved ones of someone who is terminally ill, with no prospects of recovery and whose quality of life has diminished to the point where they have made a rational decision to want to die with dignity?
Personally I don't think to assist in a suicide should invariably be a crime (so in that respect, I'd argue for a change in the law), but I do think that whether euthanasia is to be an option should be decided by on a case by case basis within the legal system with the appropriate medical professionals BEFORE any action is not taken. It's not something that should have to be argued after the event when it's all too late.
Ns04
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 20 October 2008 at 03:23 PM.