Spoon

Agreed.

Lee247

Are you seriously expecting me to say "You are right" in public, without it giving me a bit of pain. Oops

Spoon

Fair trade off I guess. Though most women don't see a twinge, there, as pain.

RJM25R

iTrader: (1)

It's a shame that he was so depressed, he couldn't see a future for himself.

RIP

Spoon

Or a blessing he was a realist.

Lee247

Depends on the strength of the twinge

scooby L

An old friend of mine from school.... on his stag doo.... his mates (I was not there) gave him the bumps then threw him over a small wall... unfortunatly it was a retaining wall and he fell 2m and broke his neck.. paralised from the neck down at 24, he was diabetic so after a year of being in his vegetable state elected to refuse his insuline injections.... he died 3 days later... terrible situation, but he was like this chap... mad on rugby and was very active.... he could not face being in that condition for the rest of his life.

It still makes me choke... RIP

Lee247

It's a very, very brave person who willingly takes his/her own life, with or without assistance.

So, so sad

Spoon

Did he suffer mental injuries too then?

scooby L

No sorry... I was unsure as I typed it whether it was the correct term...

He was all there, just paralized..

Spoon

Terrible outcome to a bit of fun though which ultimately made him decide he wanted out.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

f'kin ell!

When you hear about innocent (if ill-advised) horseplay like that ending up in such a tragedy it does make you think twice about larking about when pished!

My condolences!

David Lock

I really don't think you thought about that statement?

All too often it's a moment of cowardice and selfishness in the extreme. Obvious examples being that chap in the mansion fire who killed his own daughter and wife before topping himself or that chap who killed himself and kids to spite his ex.

I am not including this rugby chap in these sentiments. Although there is an argument that says he got out leaving his parents to suffer.

Having read all the posts on this thread I am left with the thought that medical people outside the immediate family should have a say in the action proposed. Not with a default "it is not an option" but to take a very considered view as to whether, perhaps, the final option should be held over for a time if pain is not a serious issue or a rapidly deteriorating terminal condition is not present.

And I don't think we should pass the buck to another country either. dl

Lee247

I most certainly did think about my statement and tried to word it as best I could.
I have no comprehension how people must be feeling to get to the stage of not wanting to live. And, I stand by my comment, it must take a hell of a lot of guts to go through with ending their life.

That young man made his decision. I do not feel his parents should be classed as criminals for doing what their Son wished. He had tried a number of times to take his life, apparently. What is worse, taking him somewhere he could die with dignity or come home and find he had done the job himself. They should be left alone to grieve in peace.

Spoon

David, I'm sure Lesley made the statement in the context being discussed concerning the 2 Paralysed guys who were 'sane' of mind when making the decision.

I'm sure all concerned were fully aware of what the consequences might be and weighed it up as no problem in relation to ending the lads turmoil.

However, whatever decision any medical 'expert' comes up with it won't prevent those that will take their own life, assisted or not, if they want to.

The lad in question here would have been in immense pain on a daily basis, despite his paralysis which people incorrectly seem to think just leaves you with no feeling. Then the total lack of valid mobility, made it a no brainer for him, regardless of what any medical expert might say.

Lee247

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say.

Spoon

I didn't want to answer for you but I did start my reply before you had posted. The phone prevented me from finishing it and posting it until circa 10 minutes later.

Still, I knew what you meant.

Lee247

You are probably the only one, thanks again

David Lock

OK, OK - don't shout at me But I think you will have the grace to admit that, on the face of it, it was open to misinterpretation.

In fact I think it is probably braver to provide the help in such awful cases. I am pretty sure I couldn't, particularly to a child of mine. dl

David Lock

The classic example of this being people diving into swimming pools when p,issed not knowing that it had been drained down. I know of 2 instances of this, one being at my sports club when I lived overseas. The guy broke his neck and killed himself. dl

David Lock

There will be medical experts - or "experts" as you say in a slightly demeaning way - who specialise in this field and will have knowledge of the mental progress of such cases. This may well change from a suicidal approach to an acceptance of the condition. Of course I have no knowledge of any of this aside from the fact that people do change attitudes, more so at a youngish age. All I am suggesting is that their experience is made available before a final decision is made.

I was one of those who assumed that pain was not a major issue so I will take your comment to heart on that. dl

Lee247

I agree, hence why I said I posted it as best I could.

Thankfully Spoon and hopefully others who know me, will know exactly what I was trying to say.

Oh and I like shouting

Spoon

I'm fully aware of what is out there and know the experts well so therefore also know exactly how progress is monitored. I do think you are confusing some kind of mental state decision though as opposed to a perfectly calculated decision.

Lee247

That is the whole point. He was of totally sane mind. He knew exactly what he wanted and was determined to get it, come hell or high water.

No amount of talking by anyone was going to change his mind.

Just because his body did not work, did not say his mind didn't either.
I have a disabled pal and the amount of people who speak to him as if he is retarded (sorry, in context with my comments) is a joke. It infuriates me. He has more intelligence than oooh, countless people and is always up for a laugh. HE has accepted his situation. Lots don't

I can see where you are coming from, David. I am a Mother. I would not even dare go to the place this lads parents have been to. Does not bare thinking about.

Hence I think his parents are to be admired and left alone

David Lock

So where do you draw the line? God forbid but your 8 year old son does the same in junior Rugby and says he can't face life in a chair. Your 14 year old, your 23 year old?

When do you, as a mother (or father) say "well it's your decision, we'll help". I have no idea of the answer but, of course, it will be largely dependant on the individual circumstances. The wrong parents might just make the wrong, short-sighted decision, without help/advice. dl

Turbohot

^ You said it

Lines are drawn upon people's personal and individual experiences. If anyone had "lived" the young man's helplessness, and if anyone had "felt" his agony; like his parents did, then perhaps they would think differently. In plain and simple words, the parents of the young man should be left alone. They must have already gone through serious emotional trauma when they had to abide by their son's wish in his favour.

I have been listening it on the news since Friday. My sincere sympathy to the parents, and my empathy to the son who unchained himself from his long lasting agony.
Rest in peace.

Spoon

He's a good lad too.

David Lock

Don't foget that complete retard........

Now what's his name??


Um

Um


Oh yes - Stephen Hawking

Spoon

Drawing the line isn't going to be easy but there are huge differences between the case discussed here and say an 8 year old child.

Even care for a paralysed child would be so much easier. The lad discussed here was 23 years of age and maybe what, 17+ stones in weight? Lifting and transporting are a logistical nightmare of somebody this size compared to a child of say 8 years of age.

Socially an 8 year old could also like the attention the injuries bring, making them actually feel special and always the centre of attention. A 23 year old would almost certainly not but maybe not all 23 year olds.

What I know is that the chap discussed here was a competitive achiever destined for bigger and better things in the life he had planned. He wasn't just a 23 year old that did nothing and had no aspirations and that might have been happy to exist in the body he ended up with. This was key to his decision in my opinion and not a depressed knee jerk reaction that any amount of councelling could have stopped.

Spinal injury units up and down the country are equipped with peer support groups that exist for recently injured patients, so every bit of information necessary for rehabilitation is available already. There's no getting away from it when you're in hospital for circa 7 months as a Tetraplegic. Whether or not you choose to listen to it is a different matter, lots do, some don't.

Spoon

David, I fail to see your point, please explain?