Compnay reclaiming expenses query ..
02 March 2007, 04:31 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Compnay reclaiming expenses query ..
Hi,
In a position at the moment where a few people at my company, including myself, are being asked to pay back expenses. Basically the issue arises from claiming too much for car mileage. The thing is there is no 'fraud' involved, it has been a genuine mistake caused by failures in providing clear information and by our expense tool allowing you to claim a higher figure even though the 'profile' it uses is set correctly. The tool will only accept the number of miles driven - it fills in the rate for you.
For myself, this has been over a period of a year, but my colleague has been using the same process since he joined over 2 years ago. At all times the expense reports have been signed off by our respective managers. But now the company says we need to pay it back.
I might add that the expenses dept. have behaved very unprofessionally all the way along the line, from sending an initial 'anonymous' email with details of monies to be paid back, not answering direct questions, refusing face to face meetings and blantently lieing about how the expenses tool is not wrong and we (the employees) are to blame.
If it was just me then I'd say 'hey, sorry, I'll put a cheque in the post' and feel guilty and stupid. But there were a lot of people caught out like this and we have documentary and pictorial (screen shot) proof that the tool works incorrectly (according to them).
My suggestion to them (studiously ignored) was to say now we've clarified the policy AND fixed the tools and procedures, from 1st Jan. we'll come down on anyone who ignores it. In the meantime we'll give an amnesty to those that have been caught out. Sounds reasonable to me. My bosses boss is going to suggest this to them. Hopefully a senior manager, whose budget it is, will not be ignored.
Anyone know the legal points involved here? A company asking (actually, demanding) for money back because of a c*ck-up on their part? Advice or pointers appreciated.
Dave
In a position at the moment where a few people at my company, including myself, are being asked to pay back expenses. Basically the issue arises from claiming too much for car mileage. The thing is there is no 'fraud' involved, it has been a genuine mistake caused by failures in providing clear information and by our expense tool allowing you to claim a higher figure even though the 'profile' it uses is set correctly. The tool will only accept the number of miles driven - it fills in the rate for you.
For myself, this has been over a period of a year, but my colleague has been using the same process since he joined over 2 years ago. At all times the expense reports have been signed off by our respective managers. But now the company says we need to pay it back.
I might add that the expenses dept. have behaved very unprofessionally all the way along the line, from sending an initial 'anonymous' email with details of monies to be paid back, not answering direct questions, refusing face to face meetings and blantently lieing about how the expenses tool is not wrong and we (the employees) are to blame.
If it was just me then I'd say 'hey, sorry, I'll put a cheque in the post' and feel guilty and stupid. But there were a lot of people caught out like this and we have documentary and pictorial (screen shot) proof that the tool works incorrectly (according to them).
My suggestion to them (studiously ignored) was to say now we've clarified the policy AND fixed the tools and procedures, from 1st Jan. we'll come down on anyone who ignores it. In the meantime we'll give an amnesty to those that have been caught out. Sounds reasonable to me. My bosses boss is going to suggest this to them. Hopefully a senior manager, whose budget it is, will not be ignored.
Anyone know the legal points involved here? A company asking (actually, demanding) for money back because of a c*ck-up on their part? Advice or pointers appreciated.
Dave
02 March 2007, 05:44 PM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
02 March 2007, 05:58 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 25,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds as though those in the expense department are trying to shift the blame from themselves to the staff who have claimed expenses, very poor form indeed.
If you have solid proof that you were not making fraudlent claims, that the system did not allow you to change the rate, and that the information given to you about expenses was not crystal clear, then I'd go and talk to a solicitor and see what they suggest.
If my boss asked me to pay back expenses as he'd made a **** up then I'd explain, politely, that he's not getting anything back, it was his mistake, not mine. Granted from now on I'd make sure I triple check things, but we'd have an amnesty on prior claims.
If you have solid proof that you were not making fraudlent claims, that the system did not allow you to change the rate, and that the information given to you about expenses was not crystal clear, then I'd go and talk to a solicitor and see what they suggest.
If my boss asked me to pay back expenses as he'd made a **** up then I'd explain, politely, that he's not getting anything back, it was his mistake, not mine. Granted from now on I'd make sure I triple check things, but we'd have an amnesty on prior claims.
02 March 2007, 06:50 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a similar situation with an expense claim.
I went on a business trip and duly put in my expense claim and had it paid.
A few weeks later they complained I hadn't accounted for everything and owed them £30. I told them they were wrong and that I had done everything properly. An hour later they returned and said that they had accidentally paid me £30 too much in return.
They wanted a cheque for £30 there and then. I told them to go away and I'll consider putting it in the post. I never did of course. A year later, I put in an expense claim for £50 and was paid £20. They got their money in the end.
If you don't resolve your situation then I expect they'll do the same. Every expense claim you put in for the next year will be used to pay off the excess and you won't get any money.
I went on a business trip and duly put in my expense claim and had it paid.
A few weeks later they complained I hadn't accounted for everything and owed them £30. I told them they were wrong and that I had done everything properly. An hour later they returned and said that they had accidentally paid me £30 too much in return.
They wanted a cheque for £30 there and then. I told them to go away and I'll consider putting it in the post. I never did of course. A year later, I put in an expense claim for £50 and was paid £20. They got their money in the end.
If you don't resolve your situation then I expect they'll do the same. Every expense claim you put in for the next year will be used to pay off the excess and you won't get any money.
02 March 2007, 11:05 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say with 99.99% certainty that the company is completely within their rights to claim their money back.
As an employee you have a duty of care to ensure you are claiming the right expenses.
In another example if you were suddenly being paid £100 extra in your payslip due to a computer error then it would be your responsibility to let payroll know and pay the money back.
I have come across this scenario at work several times and the money was always due back. It is up to the company how they want to deal with it.
As an employee you have a duty of care to ensure you are claiming the right expenses.
In another example if you were suddenly being paid £100 extra in your payslip due to a computer error then it would be your responsibility to let payroll know and pay the money back.
I have come across this scenario at work several times and the money was always due back. It is up to the company how they want to deal with it.
Trending Topics
03 March 2007, 07:20 AM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
03 March 2007, 08:42 AM
#9
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 5,528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a situation a while ago in a former job where the payroll dept gave me double the rate for my overtime without realising. I had to pay it all back (i did wonder why i had so much OT that month.....)
Dave
Dave
03 March 2007, 09:49 AM
#10
Scooby Regular
You will have to pay it back but a bit unfair to demand a large sum of money in one go - they should allow regular installments to be paid direct from salary.
My boss keeps paying my expenses twice by mistake - the last lot were 800 quid. I did not notice it, but he did and I just use it as a pre-payment for future expenses - would not dare suggest that as he made a mistake it was now mine to keep! I value my job too much.
My boss keeps paying my expenses twice by mistake - the last lot were 800 quid. I did not notice it, but he did and I just use it as a pre-payment for future expenses - would not dare suggest that as he made a mistake it was now mine to keep! I value my job too much.
03 March 2007, 12:05 PM
#11
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the firm had set their rates incorrectly in their expense accounting then you can hardly be held to blame. It would also be most unfair to expect people to pay large sums back which might cause them financial problems. I think the accounts department should carry the can for the whole thing and you should not be asked to pay it back.
Why should it be your responsibility to check whether the accounting section is paying the correct rate. That is their job entirely.
Les
Why should it be your responsibility to check whether the accounting section is paying the correct rate. That is their job entirely.
Les
03 March 2007, 12:17 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: sunny north east
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you're aware that there was an error, then you could be guilty of fraud, I guess
in my view the company are quite within their rights to demand the money back, however I woud expect them to give staged payment options for larger amounts
in my view the company are quite within their rights to demand the money back, however I woud expect them to give staged payment options for larger amounts
Last edited by scoobian; 04 March 2007 at 03:13 PM.
03 March 2007, 12:33 PM
#13
Private car usage means the tax office will allow a claim of up to 40p per mile for the first 10,000 and then 20p per mile thereafter. You company can offer whatever rate they want though.
But keep in mind if you are allowed by your company to claim more that these tax office rates (or in your case you have possible inadvertantly claimed more than these rates) then it'll be a taxable benefit and you'll have the tax office after your money as well as your own company wanting a refund.
But keep in mind if you are allowed by your company to claim more that these tax office rates (or in your case you have possible inadvertantly claimed more than these rates) then it'll be a taxable benefit and you'll have the tax office after your money as well as your own company wanting a refund.
03 March 2007, 10:53 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the firm had set their rates incorrectly in their expense accounting then you can hardly be held to blame. It would also be most unfair to expect people to pay large sums back which might cause them financial problems. I think the accounts department should carry the can for the whole thing and you should not be asked to pay it back.
Why should it be your responsibility to check whether the accounting section is paying the correct rate. That is their job entirely.
Les
Why should it be your responsibility to check whether the accounting section is paying the correct rate. That is their job entirely.
Les
I agree that the company may want to deal with it more sensitively - however mistakes are made and it both parties have a duty of care to put it to right.
If it was your mistake I am sure that it is in your nature to accept responsibility, however I am sure you would reach a (financial) point where you may want to try and recover the money.
It is reasonable to suggest to the company that the money is paid back in installments.
04 March 2007, 07:57 AM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
In law, ignorance is not a valid defence.
I agree that the company may want to deal with it more sensitively - however mistakes are made and it both parties have a duty of care to put it to right.
If it was your mistake I am sure that it is in your nature to accept responsibility, however I am sure you would reach a (financial) point where you may want to try and recover the money.
It is reasonable to suggest to the company that the money is paid back in installments.
I agree that the company may want to deal with it more sensitively - however mistakes are made and it both parties have a duty of care to put it to right.
If it was your mistake I am sure that it is in your nature to accept responsibility, however I am sure you would reach a (financial) point where you may want to try and recover the money.
It is reasonable to suggest to the company that the money is paid back in installments.
NO FRAUD INVOLVED AT ALL!!!!!
But I was after some legal stuff if possible - rather than just anecdotes etc.
Ta
Dave
04 March 2007, 03:10 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Andover
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You might want to change that the correct quote which is "ignorance of the law is not a valid defence"
Ignorance is a perfectly valid defence in other cases (esp in this one where either the proceedure is not clear or the advice/direction given in good faith is incorrect).
Ignorance is a perfectly valid defence in other cases (esp in this one where either the proceedure is not clear or the advice/direction given in good faith is incorrect).
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
jobegold@hotmail.co.uk
ScoobyNet General
2
27 September 2015 09:44 PM