'It never did me any harm'
13 February 2007, 09:29 PM
#1
'It never did me any harm'
They don't know theyr'e born etc.
Obviously this is the point that those of us born in the 1970's or were kids in the 1970's have officially turned into our parents.
It does worry me what a load of feckless, lazy, workshy, greedy, unhealthy kids we are turning out, mine arnt quite like those two but it does make me think they have way too much and everything is instant gratification these days thus they have no staying power.
Obviously this is the point that those of us born in the 1970's or were kids in the 1970's have officially turned into our parents.
It does worry me what a load of feckless, lazy, workshy, greedy, unhealthy kids we are turning out, mine arnt quite like those two but it does make me think they have way too much and everything is instant gratification these days thus they have no staying power.
13 February 2007, 09:40 PM
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Its also true, that you have more than your parents, and that is what we have all being working for. A better life for us all 
We need some way to control children without being being afraid. There were a lot of bad points about the past, which are long gone. After all, kids can only have what their parents can afford to provide. Talk to the children of the 50's and see just how hard life was. Surely its better that we have worked to create a better future. We just need a way to control kids.
I don't have the solution, I wish I did.
We need some way to control children without being being afraid. There were a lot of bad points about the past, which are long gone. After all, kids can only have what their parents can afford to provide. Talk to the children of the 50's and see just how hard life was. Surely its better that we have worked to create a better future. We just need a way to control kids.
I don't have the solution, I wish I did.
14 February 2007, 12:21 PM
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If you keep giving children everything that they want, in the first place they will soon lose interest and will have no appreciation of the gifts etc anyway. They will grow to expect it all at the drop of a hat and throw the toys out of the pram if they don't get their own way. The term of course for it is that they get "spoilt" and they will not have any respect for their parents anyway.
Children in earlier times learned that they had to work for or save for it if they wanted something. When they managed to get it they appreciated it and that was a much healthier state to be in. They also grew up in an unselfish and disciplined manner and thought of others as well as for themselves. Their parents loved them and brought them up properly and the children loved their parents just as much. They respected others and were generally polite too as well as seeming to have a happier life despite the lower standard of living..
As J4CKO said, it never did them any harm!
Les
Children in earlier times learned that they had to work for or save for it if they wanted something. When they managed to get it they appreciated it and that was a much healthier state to be in. They also grew up in an unselfish and disciplined manner and thought of others as well as for themselves. Their parents loved them and brought them up properly and the children loved their parents just as much. They respected others and were generally polite too as well as seeming to have a happier life despite the lower standard of living..
As J4CKO said, it never did them any harm!
Les
14 February 2007, 12:45 PM
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Children in earlier times learned that they had to work for or save for it if they wanted something. When they managed to get it they appreciated it and that was a much healthier state to be in. They also grew up in an unselfish and disciplined manner and thought of others as well as for themselves. Their parents loved them and brought them up properly and the children loved their parents just as much. They respected others and were generally polite too as well as seeming to have a happier life despite the lower standard of living..
I'd guarantee my father's older than you Leslie, and I'd also guarantee that he'd have a good chuckle at your sepia-tinted posts.
Once kids got over the post-WW2 rationing, they were being criticized for listening to rock and roll music, then for following the Rolling stones, then the Beatles, then dressing up in glam rock, then punk....
14 February 2007, 12:59 PM
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...and they all lived happily ever after, ahhhh...
I'd guarantee my father's older than you Leslie, and I'd also guarantee that he'd have a good chuckle at your sepia-tinted posts.
Once kids got over the post-WW2 rationing, they were being criticized for listening to rock and roll music, then for following the Rolling stones, then the Beatles, then dressing up in glam rock, then punk....
I'd guarantee my father's older than you Leslie, and I'd also guarantee that he'd have a good chuckle at your sepia-tinted posts.
Once kids got over the post-WW2 rationing, they were being criticized for listening to rock and roll music, then for following the Rolling stones, then the Beatles, then dressing up in glam rock, then punk....
I think both you and Les have valid points.
I was born in '64 but grew up with Punk, Disco, Mods, etc.
What it did grow up with was values installed in me by my parents, peers and school. I was afraid of the police and getting in trouble with them, same at school; it did not want to be one of the kids always in trouble and being singled out or in the feckwit classes. I worked hard and messed about as well but I did not n to be a looser.
I knew what was right and wrong and I had some respect for people who I saw as in authority. Teachers, doctors, police, etc. I would never ever have dreamed of ambushing and stoning a fire engine or happy slapping.
I walked to school 2 miles each day in all weathers, I used to get up at 6.00am to go swimming training before school 3 days a week and evenings 5 days a week - so did my dad as he drove the 8 miles each way. Even if I did not want to go he made me and looking back I am very grateful he pushed me on.
I had a normal childhood, did some stupid things and knew when I was doing wrong.
My parents did a good job by and large as did school and I am grateful to them.
I may not have left school a genius and to be honest I saw most of it as a waste of time but I did it as it was the right thing to do and God help me if I had skipped it.
I have spent a total of 4 months on the dole since i left school in 1980, always worked and never dreamed of sponging of the state. I just was not bought up that way to think like that.
I take full responsibility for my actions (right or wrong) and am responsible for what i do.
These days I feel kids have too much say in everything to do with their lives.
I am trying to bring my kids up with the same values and a respect of life and others and sometimes push them on even if they do not agree with me.
Last edited by The Zohan; 14 February 2007 at 01:07 PM.
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14 February 2007, 01:41 PM
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Rats, typed a reply and lost it 
I don't disagree about "kids of today". My point was basically that it seems to be generational - you can imagine parents in the 50s saying aghast "We never danced in such a sexual way", the 60s "we never went for razor fights with gangs based on our hairdos" etc etc.
How many democracies can you name where the parents say "Kids today are so much better behaved than when I was young"? I suspect, apart from perhaps NYC, not very many.
I don't disagree about "kids of today". My point was basically that it seems to be generational - you can imagine parents in the 50s saying aghast "We never danced in such a sexual way", the 60s "we never went for razor fights with gangs based on our hairdos" etc etc.
How many democracies can you name where the parents say "Kids today are so much better behaved than when I was young"? I suspect, apart from perhaps NYC, not very many.
14 February 2007, 01:43 PM
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Hi Brendan
I think both you and Les have valid points.
I was born in '64 but grew up with Punk, Disco, Mods, etc.
What it did grow up with was values installed in me by my parents, peers and school. I was afraid of the police and getting in trouble with them, same at school; it did not want to be one of the kids always in trouble and being singled out or in the feckwit classes. I worked hard and messed about as well but I did not n to be a looser.
I knew what was right and wrong and I had some respect for people who I saw as in authority. Teachers, doctors, police, etc. I would never ever have dreamed of ambushing and stoning a fire engine or happy slapping.
I walked to school 2 miles each day in all weathers, I used to get up at 6.00am to go swimming training before school 3 days a week and evenings 5 days a week - so did my dad as he drove the 8 miles each way. Even if I did not want to go he made me and looking back I am very grateful he pushed me on.
I had a normal childhood, did some stupid things and knew when I was doing wrong.
My parents did a good job by and large as did school and I am grateful to them.
I may not have left school a genius and to be honest I saw most of it as a waste of time but I did it as it was the right thing to do and God help me if I had skipped it.
I have spent a total of 4 months on the dole since i left school in 1980, always worked and never dreamed of sponging of the state. I just was not bought up that way to think like that.
I take full responsibility for my actions (right or wrong) and am responsible for what i do.
These days I feel kids have too much say in everything to do with their lives.
I am trying to bring my kids up with the same values and a respect of life and others and sometimes push them on even if they do not agree with me.
I think both you and Les have valid points.
I was born in '64 but grew up with Punk, Disco, Mods, etc.
What it did grow up with was values installed in me by my parents, peers and school. I was afraid of the police and getting in trouble with them, same at school; it did not want to be one of the kids always in trouble and being singled out or in the feckwit classes. I worked hard and messed about as well but I did not n to be a looser.
I knew what was right and wrong and I had some respect for people who I saw as in authority. Teachers, doctors, police, etc. I would never ever have dreamed of ambushing and stoning a fire engine or happy slapping.
I walked to school 2 miles each day in all weathers, I used to get up at 6.00am to go swimming training before school 3 days a week and evenings 5 days a week - so did my dad as he drove the 8 miles each way. Even if I did not want to go he made me and looking back I am very grateful he pushed me on.
I had a normal childhood, did some stupid things and knew when I was doing wrong.
My parents did a good job by and large as did school and I am grateful to them.
I may not have left school a genius and to be honest I saw most of it as a waste of time but I did it as it was the right thing to do and God help me if I had skipped it.
I have spent a total of 4 months on the dole since i left school in 1980, always worked and never dreamed of sponging of the state. I just was not bought up that way to think like that.
I take full responsibility for my actions (right or wrong) and am responsible for what i do.
These days I feel kids have too much say in everything to do with their lives.
I am trying to bring my kids up with the same values and a respect of life and others and sometimes push them on even if they do not agree with me.
15 February 2007, 11:37 AM
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...and they all lived happily ever after, ahhhh...
I'd guarantee my father's older than you Leslie, and I'd also guarantee that he'd have a good chuckle at your sepia-tinted posts.
Once kids got over the post-WW2 rationing, they were being criticized for listening to rock and roll music, then for following the Rolling stones, then the Beatles, then dressing up in glam rock, then punk....
I'd guarantee my father's older than you Leslie, and I'd also guarantee that he'd have a good chuckle at your sepia-tinted posts.
Once kids got over the post-WW2 rationing, they were being criticized for listening to rock and roll music, then for following the Rolling stones, then the Beatles, then dressing up in glam rock, then punk....
Tell you what Brendan, why don't you actually ask him and get him to compare the general behaviour of children of his era compared with those of today. Those days were a great deal more pleasant to live in from the point of view of security on the streets and not having to put up with mouthfuls of disgusting language and total lack of thought or respect for others that we see so much of today. There was not the threat of mugging at knife or even gunpoint and elderly people did not have to fear for themselves in the presence of children on the streets.
Of course new things such as Rock etc were criticised by people who did not understand it, but it did not prevent the children from enjoying it anyway, and listening to "Sounds of the Sixties" is actually very enjoyable since the quality of pop music was far better than todays offerings. In fact I don't really understand what you are trying to say by mentioning that anyway.
Young people are always misunderstood by the older generation in any case, but the test is to compare the relative behaviour as time goes by and see what the effect is of a proper and disciplined upbringing on a child, as it was in those earlier days when people loved their children just as much as at any time, but were not frightened to punish them effectively where necessary.
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 15 February 2007 at 11:42 AM.
15 February 2007, 11:53 AM
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rather than spouting the normal 'youth of today' rubbish can i suggest you do some historical research rather than relying on the 'in my day' rose tinted rubbish spouted by you parents
violent crime, disrespect and all the other issues have been here forever and probably will be forever
Victorian London was not a very nice place to be (high likelyhood of getting your throat cut) - the post war generation were one of the most violent (ie your parents). Next time they spout ****e ask them about Teddyboy razor fights if from the 50s or massed battles (with weapons) on Brigton seafront if from the 60s
If anything 'the youth of today' is probably less violent
violent crime, disrespect and all the other issues have been here forever and probably will be forever
Victorian London was not a very nice place to be (high likelyhood of getting your throat cut) - the post war generation were one of the most violent (ie your parents). Next time they spout ****e ask them about Teddyboy razor fights if from the 50s or massed battles (with weapons) on Brigton seafront if from the 60s
If anything 'the youth of today' is probably less violent
15 February 2007, 12:45 PM
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rather than spouting the normal 'youth of today' rubbish can i suggest you do some historical research rather than relying on the 'in my day' rose tinted rubbish spouted by you parents
violent crime, disrespect and all the other issues have been here forever and probably will be forever
Victorian London was not a very nice place to be (high likelyhood of getting your throat cut) - the post war generation were one of the most violent (ie your parents). Next time they spout ****e ask them about Teddyboy razor fights if from the 50s or massed battles (with weapons) on Brigton seafront if from the 60s
If anything 'the youth of today' is probably less violent
violent crime, disrespect and all the other issues have been here forever and probably will be forever
Victorian London was not a very nice place to be (high likelyhood of getting your throat cut) - the post war generation were one of the most violent (ie your parents). Next time they spout ****e ask them about Teddyboy razor fights if from the 50s or massed battles (with weapons) on Brigton seafront if from the 60s
If anything 'the youth of today' is probably less violent
Guns and drugs are widely avaliable and easy to get, a lot coming in on the same routes illegals use to enter the UK.
Razor fights, show some statisctis for deaths in that period, these days gangs are carying guns mate not knives and show a propensity to use them. Police being shot dead and just in the news the three black lads guned down, two in their homes.
If you think this is acceptable now then think agian and something needs to be done.
stop weapons and drugs coming in - this is a no brainer and just common sense - come on Blair!
crack down on people using guns, 20+ year sentances for carrying life for using and life meaning life for killing another.
Police using robust tacktics to stop these clown gangstas as well with the backing from the government and public alike.
BBC NEWS | UK | Violent crime shows 6% increase
"Violent crime in the three months to the end of June increased by 6% on the same period last year, according to quarterly Home Office figures.
But crime overall fell by 2%, the figures for England and Wales showed.
The Home Office said the figures for violent offences - up from 301,100 to 318,200 - reflected improved crime recording and more proactive policing.
Annual crime figures published in July indicated one million violent offences in 2004-5 - up 7% on the previous year.
The 318,200 violent offences, including murder, serious wounding and other life-threatening crimes, in the second quarter of 2005, also represented a rise of more than 30,000 from the 284,900 recorded in the first quarter. "
15 February 2007, 12:49 PM
#15
Is it because kids are worse, is it because society is failing them or is it because the media is able to show more instances, more quickly and thus alter our perception? I suspect points 2 and three are closer to the trust than kids being worse.
"When I were a lad we had to live in a cardboard box, all 65 of us!"
"When I were a lad we had to live in a cardboard box, all 65 of us!"
15 February 2007, 12:53 PM
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Is it because kids are worse, is it because society is failing them or is it because the media is able to show more instances, more quickly and thus alter our perception? I suspect points 2 and three are closer to the trust than kids being worse.
"When I were a lad we had to live in a cardboard box, all 65 of us!"
"When I were a lad we had to live in a cardboard box, all 65 of us!"
When i was a lad i would not know where to get hold of a gun or buy drugs with the same ease as buying sweets.
I did not know of anyone with a gun other than kids dads who had shotguns.
I do not remember kids shooting each other either or gang warfare
I do not think that is a rose tinted view
If you read my inital post about my childhood then thats how i was bought up, nothing special about it just good parents, good schooling and respect for others. I left school with few qualifications, i did not become a gang memeber, a druggie, dealer or a pimp just worked damn hard and set goals other than being a waste of space or looking for the easy ride and blaming everyone except myself.
Last edited by The Zohan; 15 February 2007 at 12:59 PM.
15 February 2007, 01:09 PM
#17
Paul,
I'm not suggesting you are anything other than a well adjusted individual! For my part, my neighbour had a .22 rifle which his son and I used to shoot targets up their garden at the ages of 10 or so, unsupervised! No way would I let my kids do that!!
The point I'm making is that back then we didn't have 24 hour news coverage bringing this into our homes day in day out. So what we perceive is that because there have been 3 linked murders, all of a sudden all kids are trying to kill each other. I feel that the media brings all these things to us and then takes a sanctamonious view, standing back and tutting at how bad it all is.
Now maybe it is that bad and maybe it isn't but it is sensationalised and glossed up in lurid technicolour with implied, unsubstantiated links to all manner of nasties. There's been a couple of cases recently where they got it wrong: The Ipswich murders where one of the guys questioned was innocent but he was tried by the media and ended up killing himself.
Sorry - rant over
I'm not suggesting you are anything other than a well adjusted individual!
For my part, my neighbour had a .22 rifle which his son and I used to shoot targets up their garden at the ages of 10 or so, unsupervised! No way would I let my kids do that!!The point I'm making is that back then we didn't have 24 hour news coverage bringing this into our homes day in day out. So what we perceive is that because there have been 3 linked murders, all of a sudden all kids are trying to kill each other. I feel that the media brings all these things to us and then takes a sanctamonious view, standing back and tutting at how bad it all is.
Now maybe it is that bad and maybe it isn't but it is sensationalised and glossed up in lurid technicolour with implied, unsubstantiated links to all manner of nasties. There's been a couple of cases recently where they got it wrong: The Ipswich murders where one of the guys questioned was innocent but he was tried by the media and ended up killing himself.
Sorry - rant over
15 February 2007, 01:15 PM
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Paul,
I'm not suggesting you are anything other than a well adjusted individual! For my part, my neighbour had a .22 rifle which his son and I used to shoot targets up their garden at the ages of 10 or so, unsupervised! No way would I let my kids do that!!
The point I'm making is that back then we didn't have 24 hour news coverage bringing this into our homes day in day out. So what we perceive is that because there have been 3 linked murders, all of a sudden all kids are trying to kill each other. I feel that the media brings all these things to us and then takes a sanctamonious view, standing back and tutting at how bad it all is.
Now maybe it is that bad and maybe it isn't but it is sensationalised and glossed up in lurid technicolour with implied, unsubstantiated links to all manner of nasties. There's been a couple of cases recently where they got it wrong: The Ipswich murders where one of the guys questioned was innocent but he was tried by the media and ended up killing himself.
Sorry - rant over
I'm not suggesting you are anything other than a well adjusted individual!
For my part, my neighbour had a .22 rifle which his son and I used to shoot targets up their garden at the ages of 10 or so, unsupervised! No way would I let my kids do that!!The point I'm making is that back then we didn't have 24 hour news coverage bringing this into our homes day in day out. So what we perceive is that because there have been 3 linked murders, all of a sudden all kids are trying to kill each other. I feel that the media brings all these things to us and then takes a sanctamonious view, standing back and tutting at how bad it all is.
Now maybe it is that bad and maybe it isn't but it is sensationalised and glossed up in lurid technicolour with implied, unsubstantiated links to all manner of nasties. There's been a couple of cases recently where they got it wrong: The Ipswich murders where one of the guys questioned was innocent but he was tried by the media and ended up killing himself.
Sorry - rant over
I do agree that the media are in our face 24/7
I also remember shooting targets in the back garden with 177 and 22's - happy days.
I do feel that kids to not get the guidance and pushing they need and have just too much say in their own lives and that the is not much responsibilty taken for their actions or respect for others. This is not all kids but i feel more and more and we are now at th e stage where badly bought up kids are now parents themsleves, how are they going to be able to instill this into their own kids?
Shame
15 February 2007, 01:26 PM
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like i said - do your research gain some wisdom and think for a change rather than be a spoonfed sheep. Don't look at Govt statistics without thinking for yourself and assume that crime is rising/falling. Look at the underlying analysis (trust me i used to be a Govt statistician, i could have you beliving black was white if i wanted too - you need to know what is being recorded and how/why)
questions
- does the improved reporting of crime mean that there is actually more or less crime in real terms?
- does global 24/7 media news improve the perception of crime? (ie old lady mugged in city - is this really national news, are you really likely to be mugged)
does in not strike you as strange that EVERY generation has the same problem with the next and has done for hundreds of years.
Human memory is very selective at remembering the good stuff and forgetting the bad but i bet newspaper headlines haven't really changed much in hundreds of years
questions
- does the improved reporting of crime mean that there is actually more or less crime in real terms?
- does global 24/7 media news improve the perception of crime? (ie old lady mugged in city - is this really national news, are you really likely to be mugged)
does in not strike you as strange that EVERY generation has the same problem with the next and has done for hundreds of years.
Human memory is very selective at remembering the good stuff and forgetting the bad but i bet newspaper headlines haven't really changed much in hundreds of years
15 February 2007, 01:46 PM
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like i said - do your research gain some wisdom and think for a change rather than be a spoonfed sheep. Don't look at Govt statistics without thinking for yourself and assume that crime is rising/falling. Look at the underlying analysis (trust me i used to be a Govt statistician, i could have you beliving black was white if i wanted too - you need to know what is being recorded and how/why)
You do the research matey!.
I for one have listed how crime has effected me in the last 3-4 years on SN before
To recap
I have been robbed infront of my kids at the local balloon festival in broad daylight, in fact singled out because i had two small children with me and unable to do anything about it.
Burgled whilst we slept upstairs
Family member (almost, jenny's side) attacked with a machette in their own home whilst defending one of her sons.
84 y/o mothers purse snatched whilst shopping in a store, she was knocked over!
My Brother in law works for the Police in a SO19 as an SFO and talk to him about violent crime and gun crime - someone who lives with it each day.
My neighbour and good friend does a similar job local to me - similar stories
I have done a lot of work with Northants Plice, the Chief Superintendants Assocoaitin , local Government region councils on al sorts of subjects, crime, law and disorder amongst them!
Razor fights between teddy boys in the 50's and Victorian England, likely to get your throat cut (where are the statistics to back that up them Amaharp???) as a comparison, dream on, why not go back to the Vikings those buggers where real hard men and liked a row, they used axes!
What matters is that right now we have big problems in the UK and it is not getting better.
Go on then, you provide the statistics, from my own experiences and talking with other people i know how things are going thank you
Last edited by The Zohan; 15 February 2007 at 01:58 PM.
15 February 2007, 02:27 PM
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it depends what your calling kids im now 20 nearly 21 and to be honest i know the value of money where as my younger cousin who is 14 doesnt and its a throw away socitey which when i was a kid we didnt have that choice we had to put up with what we got, i was lucky to have a great mum who did the best she could for us and luckily ive turned out good. i think the problems now-er days are that guns and drugs are too easily available to them and thats why all this is happening.
15 February 2007, 03:22 PM
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i apologies if the post was personally patronising as i wasn't meant to be.
My point is just that everything is assesed from the point of now and the perspective of the poster.
You claim that due to your personal experiences (of which there seem to be sadly many) crime is real and rising. Not an point of view that many could argue with. But does this actually mean crime is rising?
On the other hand i have had none of those experiences nor do i know anyone who has. But does this actually mean crime is falling?
The older stats are very hard to come by (something to do with the Police not exisiting until 1850) but remember that stats are misleading. Look at the jumps (up and down) of figures during the 90s as the measurement baseline was changed. Further back the problem was even worse, until 1930 'theft' was recorded as lost property! People are also more willing to report crime now which also puts a stange twist on the figures.
Bear in mind when thinking about fear and reporting that stats can actually work in strange ways. The tube bombings in London, taking into account the population on the day and those sadly killed/injured meant that you were actually (statisically) more likely to be struck by lightening than be involved. Bet it made you think twice about using the tube for a while though - as in this case statistics can't mask justifiable fear.
The big question is - how likely are you to be affected by crime on a daily basis 'vs' how afraid of being affected by crime are you?
We appear to have strayed of the line of 'why the little buggers need some disipline' so to get it on track try and experiment tonight if you can. Ask you Grandparents what they thought of your parents generation, then ask your parents the same about yours. The results might be strangely similar (or they had better be or i will end up looking a right opinionated ****.
My point is just that everything is assesed from the point of now and the perspective of the poster.
You claim that due to your personal experiences (of which there seem to be sadly many) crime is real and rising. Not an point of view that many could argue with. But does this actually mean crime is rising?
On the other hand i have had none of those experiences nor do i know anyone who has. But does this actually mean crime is falling?
The older stats are very hard to come by (something to do with the Police not exisiting until 1850) but remember that stats are misleading. Look at the jumps (up and down) of figures during the 90s as the measurement baseline was changed. Further back the problem was even worse, until 1930 'theft' was recorded as lost property! People are also more willing to report crime now which also puts a stange twist on the figures.
Bear in mind when thinking about fear and reporting that stats can actually work in strange ways. The tube bombings in London, taking into account the population on the day and those sadly killed/injured meant that you were actually (statisically) more likely to be struck by lightening than be involved. Bet it made you think twice about using the tube for a while though - as in this case statistics can't mask justifiable fear.
The big question is - how likely are you to be affected by crime on a daily basis 'vs' how afraid of being affected by crime are you?
We appear to have strayed of the line of 'why the little buggers need some disipline' so to get it on track try and experiment tonight if you can. Ask you Grandparents what they thought of your parents generation, then ask your parents the same about yours. The results might be strangely similar (or they had better be or i will end up looking a right opinionated ****.
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