Tommy Robinson -Oxford Union Address
21 July 2019, 09:25 AM
#31
Calling someone racist because they associate with others who are racist isn't good enough in my opinion. I watch his videos, but I couldn't be further from a racist. I'm not even against Islam, I support everyones right to express their beliefs, but I do agree that no one, even those born into cultures, should be forced to live a certain way and that's where he does speak some sense.
21 July 2019, 09:55 AM
#32
Because that's his legal name and they are obliged to use it. Tommy Robinson is only an alias that he chooses to use and has no legal standing. If you want to search to legal documents regarding his court case, then you need to use his real name. Of they don't print his real name, then it may be difficult to find such legal documents.
You can also look at it another way, why does he need to use an alias?
You can also look at it another way, why does he need to use an alias?
Case in point, let’s take a typical example...
Katie Price in court and convicted of drunk driving (again), reporting on her being in court etc...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...time-this-year
You can google her full name.
Then we have ‘Tommy’ in a typical non-news opinion column about milkshakes...not news, just opinion based on previous news, no courts, no convictions, just commentary: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tommy-robinson
’Alexander’ Johnson in the court case about his £350million claim, it’s a legal wrangling specifically targeting Boris, yet omits his full name: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-brexit-claims
22 July 2019, 07:32 AM
#34
In fairness the red tops also do it, although I’m pretty certain he’s riled them up the wrong way after going legal on them for over hounding his missus and kids.
I have admit there lies a hypocrisy when they complain about him doorstepping members of the press and media when it’s the same tactic they use when confronting their targets. Take Panorama’s confrontation tactics as a prime example of what’s common place under the pretence of ‘giving them the opportunity to give their side of the story’.
I have admit there lies a hypocrisy when they complain about him doorstepping members of the press and media when it’s the same tactic they use when confronting their targets. Take Panorama’s confrontation tactics as a prime example of what’s common place under the pretence of ‘giving them the opportunity to give their side of the story’.
23 July 2019, 03:49 PM
#35
In fairness the red tops also do it, although I’m pretty certain he’s riled them up the wrong way after going legal on them for over hounding his missus and kids.
I have admit there lies a hypocrisy when they complain about him doorstepping members of the press and media when it’s the same tactic they use when confronting their targets. Take Panorama’s confrontation tactics as a prime example of what’s common place under the pretence of ‘giving them the opportunity to give their side of the story’.
I have admit there lies a hypocrisy when they complain about him doorstepping members of the press and media when it’s the same tactic they use when confronting their targets. Take Panorama’s confrontation tactics as a prime example of what’s common place under the pretence of ‘giving them the opportunity to give their side of the story’.
23 July 2019, 06:24 PM
#36
much as i hate to bring it up-tommy and his cronies are incensed that muslim pakistani men were preying on vulnerable young girls,,,,if you,ve got daughters and half a heart the race element is hard to dismiss -if you dont feel it yourself it,s hard to make you feel any empathy for them or presumably any one else in such a position-
those young girls were let down by the entire system and left with mental and physical scars that will probably never heal.
By completely shutting down the argument and discussion by calling indivduals racist is one of the reasons that very well intentioned people were reluctant to do anything for many years -
its a point of fact that the anger created by these events will manifest itself in people like tommy robinson show boating to publicise them- the naming/shaming of defendants around the court during the trial serves no purpose other than to inform lags in prison what crime the bloke next to you has done,,,,lots of violence can be meeted out to paedophiles in prison .
.
i often wonder how rascist tommy would seem if it was YOUR daughter that had been raped /assaulted by grown men-
seems lots of you are losing sight of the horrific crimes that were commited to school children - the point that one very angry white english bloke would publicise it(badly) is completely missing the point imo
those young girls were let down by the entire system and left with mental and physical scars that will probably never heal.
By completely shutting down the argument and discussion by calling indivduals racist is one of the reasons that very well intentioned people were reluctant to do anything for many years -
its a point of fact that the anger created by these events will manifest itself in people like tommy robinson show boating to publicise them- the naming/shaming of defendants around the court during the trial serves no purpose other than to inform lags in prison what crime the bloke next to you has done,,,,lots of violence can be meeted out to paedophiles in prison .
.
i often wonder how rascist tommy would seem if it was YOUR daughter that had been raped /assaulted by grown men-
seems lots of you are losing sight of the horrific crimes that were commited to school children - the point that one very angry white english bloke would publicise it(badly) is completely missing the point imo
23 July 2019, 06:30 PM
#37
much as i hate to bring it up-tommy and his cronies are incensed that muslim pakistani men were preying on vulnerable young girls,,,,if you,ve got daughters and half a heart the race element is hard to dismiss -if you dont feel it yourself it,s hard to make you feel any empathy for them or presumably any one else in such a position-
those young girls were let down by the entire system and left with mental and physical scars that will probably never heal.
By completely shutting down the argument and discussion by calling indivduals racist is one of the reasons that very well intentioned people were reluctant to do anything for many years -
its a point of fact that the anger created by these events will manifest itself in people like tommy robinson show boating to publicise them- the naming/shaming of defendants around the court during the trial serves no purpose other than to inform lags in prison what crime the bloke next to you has done,,,,lots of violence can be meeted out to paedophiles in prison .
.
i often wonder how rascist tommy would seem if it was YOUR daughter that had been raped /assaulted by grown men-
seems lots of you are losing sight of the horrific crimes that were commited to school children - the point that one very angry white english bloke would publicise it(badly) is completely missing the point imo
those young girls were let down by the entire system and left with mental and physical scars that will probably never heal.
By completely shutting down the argument and discussion by calling indivduals racist is one of the reasons that very well intentioned people were reluctant to do anything for many years -
its a point of fact that the anger created by these events will manifest itself in people like tommy robinson show boating to publicise them- the naming/shaming of defendants around the court during the trial serves no purpose other than to inform lags in prison what crime the bloke next to you has done,,,,lots of violence can be meeted out to paedophiles in prison .
.
i often wonder how rascist tommy would seem if it was YOUR daughter that had been raped /assaulted by grown men-
seems lots of you are losing sight of the horrific crimes that were commited to school children - the point that one very angry white english bloke would publicise it(badly) is completely missing the point imo
I think the argument against this, would be the number of white child sex offenders, BUT the % of the Muslim population Vs the % of these attackers being Muslim is difficult to ignore and it's fact, that Islam doesn't have a great track record against women.
Tommy is highlighting an issue that people are scared to expose due to being labelled, but at the same time his reputation damages the credibility of the facts.
23 July 2019, 10:17 PM
#40
I'm going to get in before the "we hate Tommy" team start.
I think the argument against this, would be the number of white child sex offenders, BUT the % of the Muslim population Vs the % of these attackers being Muslim is difficult to ignore and it's fact, that Islam doesn't have a great track record against women.
Tommy is highlighting an issue that people are scared to expose due to being labelled, but at the same time his reputation damages the credibility of the facts.
I think the argument against this, would be the number of white child sex offenders, BUT the % of the Muslim population Vs the % of these attackers being Muslim is difficult to ignore and it's fact, that Islam doesn't have a great track record against women.
Tommy is highlighting an issue that people are scared to expose due to being labelled, but at the same time his reputation damages the credibility of the facts.
In the Rotherham case, the failures of police and social services may well have been partly because of confusion over exactly what racism is or isn't, but I'm sure that's only part of the story. The fact that crimes like these can happen undetected under our noses in our communities points to a systemic failure. If this issue is really what "Tommy Robinson" is about, then he should get on with it properly, and not cosy up to the Breitbarters with their belief that Islam is going to take over the world, and Britain has already fallen and all that crap.
23 July 2019, 10:19 PM
#41
The problem is equating sex offences committed by men of Pakistani origin with being Muslim. These people are criminals and nonces, They come from a community that is largely Muslim, but to suggest that they commit these crimes because they're Muslim is wrong and divisive. Do we vilify all christians because of the actions of catholic clergy?
In the Rotherham case, the failures of police and social services may well have been partly because of confusion over exactly what racism is or isn't, but I'm sure that's only part of the story. The fact that crimes like these can happen undetected under our noses in our communities points to a systemic failure. If this issue is really what "Tommy Robinson" is about, then he should get on with it properly, and not cosy up to the Breitbarters with their belief that Islam is going to take over the world, and Britain has already fallen and all that crap.
In the Rotherham case, the failures of police and social services may well have been partly because of confusion over exactly what racism is or isn't, but I'm sure that's only part of the story. The fact that crimes like these can happen undetected under our noses in our communities points to a systemic failure. If this issue is really what "Tommy Robinson" is about, then he should get on with it properly, and not cosy up to the Breitbarters with their belief that Islam is going to take over the world, and Britain has already fallen and all that crap.
23 July 2019, 11:21 PM
#42
I've never suggested he's a racist. Vast numbers of his followers here and in the US are though, and they think he's a martyr and saviour. Check out any story on Breitbart.com that's about "Khan's London" and read the comments. This is why a lot of people are anti-tommy.
24 July 2019, 07:03 AM
#43
The problem is equating sex offences committed by men of Pakistani origin with being Muslim. These people are criminals and nonces, They come from a community that is largely Muslim, but to suggest that they commit these crimes because they're Muslim is wrong and divisive. Do we vilify all christians because of the actions of catholic clergy?
In the Rotherham case, the failures of police and social services may well have been partly because of confusion over exactly what racism is or isn't, but I'm sure that's only part of the story. The fact that crimes like these can happen undetected under our noses in our communities points to a systemic failure. If this issue is really what "Tommy Robinson" is about, then he should get on with it properly, and not cosy up to the Breitbarters with their belief that Islam is going to take over the world, and Britain has already fallen and all that crap.
In the Rotherham case, the failures of police and social services may well have been partly because of confusion over exactly what racism is or isn't, but I'm sure that's only part of the story. The fact that crimes like these can happen undetected under our noses in our communities points to a systemic failure. If this issue is really what "Tommy Robinson" is about, then he should get on with it properly, and not cosy up to the Breitbarters with their belief that Islam is going to take over the world, and Britain has already fallen and all that crap.
The only time religion plays into it is the use of texts that either vague or contridictory to how we should behave and treat others but also are so far apart from the modern world and the modern expectation to treat each other equally, that they do not apply and should either be rejected or amended. And those who are against this really should not live in this country, regardless of if they are born here or not.
Now for the simplist that want to make this a black and white argument...all the above is racist as it singles out a particular ethnic group. I’d argue against that as there are plenty of people from all sorts of backgrounds that have adopted good common values and rejected outdated and repressive doctrines. We should reject those that don’t.
Shutting people down who voice concerns because “that’s racist” has only continued it, rather than addressing it.
In the end it allowed monsters to live unpunished, turned children into monsters and also created the likes of Tommy Robinson.
Last edited by ALi-B; 24 July 2019 at 07:06 AM.
24 July 2019, 09:42 AM
#45
Now for the simplist that want to make this a black and white argument...all the above is racist as it singles out a particular ethnic group. I’d argue against that as there are plenty of people from all sorts of backgrounds that have adopted good common values and rejected outdated and repressive doctrines. We should reject those that don’t.
24 July 2019, 12:47 PM
#50
Scooby Senior
Have a read of this:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7890106.html
It pretty well sums up the problem with Tommy Robinson and his narrative, even though the article doesn't even mention him!
Is Tommy a racist? Well, that is questionable, he's either racist or Islamophobic - it depends on if he treats white Islamists differently to brown Islamists!
As I've said in previous posts, some of Tommy's points are indeed valid, in particular regarding the integration of minorities in UK society (although this is not an exclusive problem to Islamic or Muslim groups), and the fact that we are often afraid to talk about such issues without being branded a racist.
However, the language that Tommy uses is and the people who he seeks to address are not ones of a informed discussion on a sensitive subject, but are designed to inflame and create intolerance against the Muslim community. His message comes across that all Muslims are bad, involved in grooming gangs and that all mosques are breeding grounds for terrorists, which is simply ridiculous and although he may not publicly condone violence, its clear his message can motivate certain people into committing violent "retaliatory" attacks against the Muslim community. Essentially, this puts him in a similar class as those Islamic extremist preachers he complains about!
Regarding integrations, as someone who has integrated in another country, I can tell you that integration is a two sided problem. On one side, the foreigner has to make the effort to integrate, learn the language, the culture etc., but on the other side, the locals have to be welcoming and help teach you the language and culture. Of course there are a great number of foreigners who don't try very hard to integrate, but from my experience, the local communities are not always very welcoming in helping people to integrate, particularly if you look different to them. In many countries, but particularly in the UK, I think there is a great lack of understanding of this problem and an attitude that put all the integration responsibility in the hands of the immigrants. A foreigner can only truly integrate if the local community accepts them! Tommy's agenda does the opposite of this and tries to create barriers between the Muslim and non Muslim communities and impedes the chance of integration by creating fear and skepticism.
As for the argument about people following religious doctrine, that is something that has existed in our society for hundreds of years. In this country we have followed Pagan, Roman, Viking and most recently Christian doctrine over the generations. Modern society has chosen to drift somewhat away from the strict Christian doctrine, but there are still many people who choose to follow more closely the religious rules. Many Christians still won't have sex before marriage, won't use contraception, are against abortions, and believe the womans' place is in the home etc. All of which is quite acceptable as long as what they do is legal and are not forced or coerced to behave that way. In a modern society which is tolerant of all religions the same must be true for people of Muslim faith. We should not expect Muslims to abandon their doctrine or religious culture, however, we have to expect everyone to obey the law of the land and if incompatibility exists between such doctrine (Christian, Muslim or whatever), then the law of the land has to take precedence and it is the responsibility of the religious leaders to adapt their teachings to ensure their follows live within our legal system. We shouldn't be afraid to tackle establishments which are not following the law, be it extremist Muslim clerics or Christian cults!
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7890106.html
It pretty well sums up the problem with Tommy Robinson and his narrative, even though the article doesn't even mention him!
Is Tommy a racist? Well, that is questionable, he's either racist or Islamophobic - it depends on if he treats white Islamists differently to brown Islamists!
As I've said in previous posts, some of Tommy's points are indeed valid, in particular regarding the integration of minorities in UK society (although this is not an exclusive problem to Islamic or Muslim groups), and the fact that we are often afraid to talk about such issues without being branded a racist.
However, the language that Tommy uses is and the people who he seeks to address are not ones of a informed discussion on a sensitive subject, but are designed to inflame and create intolerance against the Muslim community. His message comes across that all Muslims are bad, involved in grooming gangs and that all mosques are breeding grounds for terrorists, which is simply ridiculous and although he may not publicly condone violence, its clear his message can motivate certain people into committing violent "retaliatory" attacks against the Muslim community. Essentially, this puts him in a similar class as those Islamic extremist preachers he complains about!
Regarding integrations, as someone who has integrated in another country, I can tell you that integration is a two sided problem. On one side, the foreigner has to make the effort to integrate, learn the language, the culture etc., but on the other side, the locals have to be welcoming and help teach you the language and culture. Of course there are a great number of foreigners who don't try very hard to integrate, but from my experience, the local communities are not always very welcoming in helping people to integrate, particularly if you look different to them. In many countries, but particularly in the UK, I think there is a great lack of understanding of this problem and an attitude that put all the integration responsibility in the hands of the immigrants. A foreigner can only truly integrate if the local community accepts them! Tommy's agenda does the opposite of this and tries to create barriers between the Muslim and non Muslim communities and impedes the chance of integration by creating fear and skepticism.
As for the argument about people following religious doctrine, that is something that has existed in our society for hundreds of years. In this country we have followed Pagan, Roman, Viking and most recently Christian doctrine over the generations. Modern society has chosen to drift somewhat away from the strict Christian doctrine, but there are still many people who choose to follow more closely the religious rules. Many Christians still won't have sex before marriage, won't use contraception, are against abortions, and believe the womans' place is in the home etc. All of which is quite acceptable as long as what they do is legal and are not forced or coerced to behave that way. In a modern society which is tolerant of all religions the same must be true for people of Muslim faith. We should not expect Muslims to abandon their doctrine or religious culture, however, we have to expect everyone to obey the law of the land and if incompatibility exists between such doctrine (Christian, Muslim or whatever), then the law of the land has to take precedence and it is the responsibility of the religious leaders to adapt their teachings to ensure their follows live within our legal system. We shouldn't be afraid to tackle establishments which are not following the law, be it extremist Muslim clerics or Christian cults!
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24 July 2019, 02:24 PM
#51
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These guys are generally largely here, because we've subjugated their own communities back home.
How much effort did we put in to integrate when we were over there
Makes me larf
How much effort did we put in to integrate when we were over there
Makes me larf
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