pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

I know we've got a thread talking about the child abuse case specifically, but I've been watching a lot of his videos recently and doing a bit of research into who he is and his beliefs.

Much of the debate seems focus on calling him a racist or a bigot and I'm not seeing any evidence of that. He is calling out Islam and his opinion of how they treat people, which on the surface seems logical. I agree with many of the points he raised and I'm perplexed by the lack of preparation or what appears to be common sense of those that oppose him. Trying to punch, attack, shout abuse isn't the best way to convince others he's spreading hate, in fact for me it does the opposite.

Now I'm pretty open minded, I listen and watch all the protagonists online and I enjoy the shows they put on and the snow flakes they melt .. but I also agree with some of what they say and to be perfectly honest, most of what they say is fact based .. percentages etc.

So in the interest of a mature conversation on SN, those in the know, with actual reasoning and fact, help me understand why Tommy Robinson is not a man I should be supporting? and before you ask .. no you don't have to convince me of anything, but if you feel strongly either way, I'd enjoy talking it through with you.

BMWhere?

One can always make selective quotes and state selective statistics and make a convincing argument. Be it climate change deniers, flat earthers, 911 theorists or anti Islam protagonists like Yaxley-Lenon, to use his real name, they can always put across a convincing argument when considered in isolation.

He's learnt that if he dresses well and talks more calmly, then his argument is more convincing, but he wasn't always like that. Have a look at his past and he wasn't such a nice guy! Ask yourself why he doesn't use his real name? But most of all, rather than just listening to his arguments, give equal time to the opposition arguments with an open mind.

​​​​

silver-sub

Some of his convictions.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

BMWhere?

Just Google him, there's not shortage of negative opinions about him.

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

dpb

Martin2005

I'd like to understand what he's actually trying to achieve.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

You mean what he's trying to achieve, aside from a very comfortable lifestyle for himself funded entirely off the back of his carefully constructed celebrity through notorierity persona, and precious little in the way of any actual work? He probably know and cares even less than you or I do

Mick

iTrader: (1)

???

Martin2005

That's an interesting business model. I've almost got some respect for him now; making a living ripping off far-right thickos.

BMWhere?

The fact that you've invested some much listening to his rhetoric without seeing what he's like for yourself, gives me little hope that any argument here will convince you otherwise, but here goes.

Basically, his arguments pretty much come down to the Islamification of the west and his fear thereof.

ow of course it is almost certainly true that Islam as a religion would like to expand and the west is a prime candidate for expansion. But this is true for all religions and has always been the case. How many times have you had Jehovahs Witnesses or other Christian groups come to your door to try and convert you to their strand of religion. Look at organisations like Christian Aid or CAFOD and how they like to bundle bibles with aid packages in non-Christian countries and in some cases have even refused aid until the locals convert to Christianity. Basically, all strains of all religion are constantly trying to increase their membership and its something that has been going on both peacefully and violently for eternity. Britain was after all once Pagan until the Romans post Constantine forced Catholicism on us, then came Henry 8th who couldn't get a divorce from the pope so created his own religion and attempted to wipe out Catholicism from the land! Pre-Constantine, the Romans persecuted the Christians, post-Constantine, Christianity was forced on the people throughout the Roman empire. Look at the crusade's, the forced conversion to Christianity in the Americas, **** persecution of the Jews, the Catholic/Protestant based conflict in Northern Ireland, the conflict of Shea/Sunni Muslims throughout the Muslim world, the recent persecution of the Rohingya in Myanmar and this week in the news the Internment of Muslims in China's Xinjiang province. Throughout history all religions have used all possible means to expand or defend their theology against other religious groups. So, do we really need to fear the Islamifaction of the west, maybe, but based on history, probably not and being really honest, all the religions have probably got more to fear about Atheism.

So, specific to Yaxley-Lenon, he's singling out Islam, but his points are pretty much true of any religious group to varying extents. The method of his arguments is primarily to raise fear and discredit the Muslim faith. Arguments such as child abuse being part of the doctrine and how the doctrine calls all Muslims to arms to fight against the infidels are his favourites. Of course Christian child abuse is equally prolific and the Bible has also be used many times to justify violence against other religions. He argues about Islamic extremists use of violence to spread Islam to the west, yet rather hypocritically is also promoting extremist violence against Muslims. If you do a bit of research on Hitler and the **** parties tactics to turn the German public against the Jews, particularly in their early years with the Munich beer hall speeches, the arguments and tactics are strikingly similar.

Then we can get onto is character in general. Look into his history of football violence, criminal convictions, all the different alias's hes used over the years, membership of BNP, foundation of the EDL etc. He's really not a nice person and that alone is enough to discredit his viewpoint or at least hold him with a great deal of skepticism.

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

No luck in it .. he's broken the law, his character is questionable at best .. no one can argue against that ..

See this is the big question, does he just want to direct hate, or is he actually trying to educate people and his aggressive personality is making him a figure head for certain types of people.

You've made the effort to reply, which I appreciate but in the first sentence you do exactly what I've been highlighting and try to insult my intelligence. You don't know me, you don't know my back ground but you felt the need to try and have a dig. As I said you're not trying to convince me of anything, I'm not a supporter.

Is that true though? in my life time I have never been impacted by any other religion, apart from door knockers.. Islam has made my life harder, be that in the closeness of the Manchester bombing or the restrictions now on travel. I think you're heading the wrong way with the argument, I'm not looking for your take on religion, it's his approach and why you dislike him I'm after.

Ok so this is a valid point, this is the detail I'm looking for. So you believe (and I don't agree/disagree) his actions are to fuel his strength uniting people through fear, rather than a concern for peoples safety. That's a logical way of looking at it .. what has he done to make you think this specifically .. are there hate crimes you know about? (I'm asking)

His criminal history to be honest is pretty tame, he's had a few fights, but nothing that I can see related to race or hate crimes? and nothing to put him on the radar like he is ..

I'm definitely missing something .. I only heard about him recently, the far left or right are both areas I avoid.

• 2.1 April 2005 conviction for assaulting an off-duty police officer
• 2.2 June 2011 arrest for brawling
• 2.3 July 2011 arrest for brawling
• 2.4 May 2012 underage Twitter incident
• 2.5 October 2012 arrest for false passport
• 2.6 November 2013 arrest for mortgage fraud
• 2.7 October 2013 departure from the EDL
• 2.8 Pegida UK
• 2.9 February 2016 hospitalization
• 2.10 May 2017 arrest for contempt of court
• 2.11 Radicalization of Darren Osborne (terrorist)
• 2.12 March 2018 fist-fights
• 2.13 March 2018 ban from Twitter
• 2.14 May 2018 rally in London
• 2.15 May 2018 arrest for contempt of court

BMWhere?

Sorry if thats the case, you're posts so far were very much leaning towards you being a supporter! I'm sure you can accept, that once people start supporting his views, it becomes difficult to convince them otherwise!

I'm not sure how old you are, but for me the Manchester bombing was when the IRA blew up the Arndale centre. Incidentally, I was in the Arndale the weekend before the bombing! I was also a few hundred meters away when the IRA blew up the Army recruitment centre on Fishegate in Preston. When I grew up, there were no bins in train stations or airports and most town centres in England for fear of IRA bombs. There was barely an evening News which didn't feature some IRA or UDF attacks. The IRA were far more prolific back then than any Islamic terrorists are in the west today, albeit some of their attacks are more successful. The point of the terrorists is create hatred to inturn further justify their violence. I wasn't drawn in by the IRA and I won't be drawn in Islamic extremists. Afterall, you could never look at the IRA and say all Catholics are terrorists, not even all Northern Irish Catholics. In the same way, its only a handful of Muslims that are terrorists and you cannot blame an entire religion for the actions of a handful of extremists.

As for the take on religion, you can't really ignore the religious angle as its the basis for his arguments. He is after all a self proclaimed anti-islamist!

Basically, he's dishonest. He posts video footage purporting to be some scandalous event, when in fact its old footage, often selective cuts, when muslims have reacted to provocation from EDL marches. He quotes "facts" with no basis or reference. Did you know 63.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot? Is that true or did I just make it up? The point is, unless you can back up your statements with independently verifiable evidence, you can't believe anything anyone says. The general tone of his arguments is not one of reasoned debate, but one of inciting anger with the sole desire to create violence against a minority group who in many cases are completely innocent of any wrong doing. He's a clever guy, he doesn't commit the hate crimes himself, but incites the hate crimes to be committed by others.

Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

Personally, my criminal history comes down to a couple of speeding tickets. Violence, fraud, drugs offences and illegal passports sounds pretty serious to me!

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

To be fair, I'm not judging him against "normal" people, I'm looking at the amount of hate he generates ..none of his crimes (again that are easily read about) are worthy of that.

I can see your point though about the IRA, but realistically that enforces the message he's dishing out that religion is dangerous and you find more average Muslims (none fundamentalist) believe in Sharia law including the male dominance and cruel customs. The pain and hurt caused by them, is something (if you listen to him) he is trying to avoid.

So for the record my view is that you should live to the laws of the country within which with you reside. If you decide to add more laws to your life, then fine, as long as they do not impose on the laws, or lives of anyone in that country, Sharia law does. I do not believe Sharia in it's brutal forms should be accepted here, and this is were my opinions of Tommy are muddied .. because I've read the good and the bad about Sharia law.. and I agree with a lot of what he says when he talks about it. Of course my dislike of Sharia law ends with those who take it to the extreme and I support anyone's right to practice (as I said above) within the laws of the country.

People react to the horror stories as he knows they will, with fear and anger .. but is he wrong? is it a risk?

Martin2005

These views are held by the vast majority of the population, so I'm still not sure what role TR thinks he's playing. Unless you think we all need educating on something we're already fully aware of?

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

Ah you quoted me before I corrected my phones attempt at the reply .. lol

and now we're back to the question .. what is he trying to do?

Martin2005

Well my best guess is that this is all about the cult of personality. He is in many ways exploiting the Muslim population for his own gain

It doesn't seem to have any kind of solution to the issue he keeps highlighting either

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

true ...

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

tommy robinson the english mans equivilent to ahmed choudry

BMWhere?

You'll get no argument from me there! The law of the land is the only thing that has any legal base. Following religious "law" be it Sharia Law or Catholic doctrine etc. is all fine as long as it doesn't conflict with the law of the land.
I really don't know if Yaxley-Lennon is cleverly using his tripe to gain fame and wealth or if he genuinely believes what he's saying and just wants to educate the people as some sort of civic duty. Either way, it changes nothing for me - his rhetoric is dangerous and misguided.

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

Have a look at the videos of Tommy going to confront people calling him a **** or white supremacist .. interesting that people are all talk an opinion behind a keyboard. Regardless if it's right or wrong.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

The guy has multiple convictions for assault, most of which came about precisely when others expressed a difference of opinions with him. You find it surprising that people are now reluctant to do so to his face?

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

Yes, if they are willing to do it via a paper. He goes in with a camera and one camera man, they are in a crowded office. They're perfectly safe but they don't have the detail to back it up. This pissed me off, if they are right and from what I can tell they are .. where is the evidence.

If I call you a ****, and you come over in the pub I expect to have to defend or explain myself .. why do we allow people to hide behind papers and words, if you're going to comment on someone, have the ***** to say it to their face and more importantly the facts to back it up.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

All current evidence seems to point to TR being nothing more than a controversy ***** (albeit a rather successful one, at that), whose driving ambition is simply to rake in as much donated cash as possible. If you don't believe me, take a look at the links below, from people on the alt-right who believe he's lost all credibility, and from news sources confirming just how much he's raking in from deliberately getting himself arrested:
https://www.counter-currents.com/201...on-is-a-fraud/
Sky Views: Why take the tape off Tommy Robinson's mouth?
Tommy Robinson’s ‘massive’ jail bonus: publicity | News | The Sunday Times

Whether or not he's really a **** or white supremacist seems quite irrelevant now.

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

So.. now we hate him because he's making money from publicity stunts, not because he's a racist?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Supposing I flipped that on its head and posed the question "is Tommy Robinson really trying to achieve very much at all, other than stir up racial and political tensions and divisions in the country, while making himself rich in the process?", and assuming we had to come to the conclusion that the answer is "more than likely not". Are you honestly saying you'd find anything laudable or agreeable in that?

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I don't need to hate someone just to come to the conclusion that they're a sad, insignificant, self-important oxygen thief, and I suspect a great many people who share that opinion of Tommy Robinson are in the same boat. So why are you so convinced that their dismissal of him rises to the level of hatred?

Oh, and you still haven't answered the question. What do you think TR is really trying to achieve?

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)