top mount or front mount?
05 August 2010, 04:54 PM
#1
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top mount or front mount?
ok. i don't want to spark an argument, i just want to know whether it is worth me buying a front mount or just buying another top mount? i have a 2002 wrx ppp and am aiming for 350 bhp via bigger turbo,injectors,decat,etc,etc. because i have a wrx, i will have to uprate the intercooler. i can either get an sti intercooler for around £150 or a front mount for the same. which is better. i know the advantages,disadvantages of front/top mount, i just want better cooling. I know there will be slightly more lag from a td05 16g as it is bigger, but will the front mount give me more lag or is it a myth?
Thanks
Thanks
05 August 2010, 05:06 PM
#2
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For your particular application i would go with the STI TMIC. I run a FMIC on my bugeye with no noticable lag. Also ran one on my classic and again no real lag. Having said about the TMIC a FMIC will always give better cooling that is a no brainer.
Folk often confuse lag with being in the wrong gear lol.
Folk often confuse lag with being in the wrong gear lol.
Last edited by 71/200; 05 August 2010 at 05:07 PM.
05 August 2010, 05:10 PM
#3
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Front mount will by far be the most effective due to size and location, you are looking at £300 for a reasonable front mount as some of the stuff offered on ebay will offer little benefit compared to your current oe top mount. The STI intercooler should be ok, but they suffer as all top mounts do from heat soak when in traffic, but they are easy swop to fit as long and ensure you have the larger undertray to ensure the air goes onto the larger STI intercooler.
When the car is mapped they can allow for a front mount so it should be a small difference, any lag is the time it takes to get the air round the loop and back. I doubt you will get much beyond 330 on a WRX for a prolonged amount of time without a new Gearbox and then a rebuild due to the internals just not being able to cope.
When the car is mapped they can allow for a front mount so it should be a small difference, any lag is the time it takes to get the air round the loop and back. I doubt you will get much beyond 330 on a WRX for a prolonged amount of time without a new Gearbox and then a rebuild due to the internals just not being able to cope.
05 August 2010, 05:15 PM
#4
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Plenty of Bugeye WRX running 350+ and still going strong. Every car will be different in what it can take on OE internals and OE gearbox.
Enginetuners classic is testament to that.
Enginetuners classic is testament to that.
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05 August 2010, 07:12 PM
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A newage STi top mount intercooler will service well over 400bhp without problem, so as things stand I would suggest that this would be the better short-term option. If you are going to be forging "later", you can always flog an STI IC and go to an appropriately sized front mount then.
If you are going to buy an FMIC now, do it properly rather than paying £150 for a piece of sh*t that will be less efficient than your WRX IC.
If you are going to buy an FMIC now, do it properly rather than paying £150 for a piece of sh*t that will be less efficient than your WRX IC.
05 August 2010, 08:07 PM
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As splitpin says the sTI top mount will more than siot your needs and as the 16G will NEVER reach 400bhp you will be running well within the limits of the Top mount....
You do however seem to have missed off a few things :
STI TMIC - £150 for the intercool + You will need to replace the Front scoop and the Splitter underneath to maximize the use of the larger Top mount, also make sure it comes with the Y piece
FMIC - £150 for intercooler + and induction kit as the piping will replace the airbox + a new DV to sit on the intercooler piping unless you plan to blank the DV off + fitting is a ****, you will have to cut a large amount of the front bumper out. If you have fog lights chances are they aint going back in.
Has your fuel pump been replaced? Will a WRX hit 350bhp with std injectors on a 16G?
You do however seem to have missed off a few things :
STI TMIC - £150 for the intercool + You will need to replace the Front scoop and the Splitter underneath to maximize the use of the larger Top mount, also make sure it comes with the Y piece
FMIC - £150 for intercooler + and induction kit as the piping will replace the airbox + a new DV to sit on the intercooler piping unless you plan to blank the DV off + fitting is a ****, you will have to cut a large amount of the front bumper out. If you have fog lights chances are they aint going back in.
Has your fuel pump been replaced? Will a WRX hit 350bhp with std injectors on a 16G?
Last edited by Stealth; 05 August 2010 at 08:08 PM.
07 August 2010, 12:55 PM
#11
If you are still looking for input you may find this helpful.
Firstly a TD05 16G will typically run to 330 bhp and when pushed you may be very lucky to get as far as 350 bhp. Normally your car would be OK to run with a top mount as already fitted up the reasonable level of a TD05 16G but when you push the turbo hard you are taking it outside the efficiency envelope and therefore creating more heat. A TD05 18G which can run efficiently at around 360 bhp would be a better choice but at that point you are in the realms of needing a front mount which will future proof you.
With an efficient front mount properly mapped additional lag is very much a myth.
If you do a search you will come up with lots of varied opinions and here is one recent thread. My actual experience, accurately tabulated at the time is post 29.
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...ont-mount.html
There are numerous more threads on this.
Firstly a TD05 16G will typically run to 330 bhp and when pushed you may be very lucky to get as far as 350 bhp. Normally your car would be OK to run with a top mount as already fitted up the reasonable level of a TD05 16G but when you push the turbo hard you are taking it outside the efficiency envelope and therefore creating more heat. A TD05 18G which can run efficiently at around 360 bhp would be a better choice but at that point you are in the realms of needing a front mount which will future proof you.
With an efficient front mount properly mapped additional lag is very much a myth.
If you do a search you will come up with lots of varied opinions and here is one recent thread. My actual experience, accurately tabulated at the time is post 29.
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...ont-mount.html
There are numerous more threads on this.
07 August 2010, 03:22 PM
#12
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Even if you do get a 16G to run 350bhp on a dyno run it won't run that consistently, go 18G 
You'll notice a little delay in spool up, not because of the front mount because this can be mapped out but because the turbo is simply larger! If you had an STI it wouldn't be so much of and issue because of the AVC heads
You'll notice a little delay in spool up, not because of the front mount because this can be mapped out but because the turbo is simply larger! If you had an STI it wouldn't be so much of and issue because of the AVC heads
Last edited by Stealth; 07 August 2010 at 03:24 PM.
07 August 2010, 03:38 PM
#14
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I would go with a STi TMIC.
Mine made a solid 340/340 on DD. Some rollers will put out 350+.
FMIC will always add lag, whether you notice it or not is debatable, but it is there, of that there is no question. You only need to look at the lengths of pipework involved.
STi TMIC + TD05-16G is nice and cheap to do and turns the car into a stormer.
Btw, there is still no TD05-18g turbo out there (FMIC or TMIC) that I know of that has gone quicker than my STi TMIC + 16g setup on the blackstuff.
Worth taking a read of what one of the most successful Subaru tuners around has to say re intercoolers: http://www.andyforrestperformance.co.uk/27032.html
Mine made a solid 340/340 on DD. Some rollers will put out 350+.
FMIC will always add lag, whether you notice it or not is debatable, but it is there, of that there is no question. You only need to look at the lengths of pipework involved.
STi TMIC + TD05-16G is nice and cheap to do and turns the car into a stormer.
Btw, there is still no TD05-18g turbo out there (FMIC or TMIC) that I know of that has gone quicker than my STi TMIC + 16g setup on the blackstuff.
Worth taking a read of what one of the most successful Subaru tuners around has to say re intercoolers: http://www.andyforrestperformance.co.uk/27032.html
07 August 2010, 03:50 PM
#17
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a VF35 will not make 350bhp all day if at all........ tis probably comparable to a TD05 16G but the VF35 will spool quicker but isn't as strong.
it's horses for courses.... you want a quick point to point car then a 16-18G are the turbos for you, quickish spooling turbos good for twisties or start stop driving 20G+ for braggin rights and big power figures, only any real use if you are looking for straight line power, not so much use chucking around the bendies.... Laggy!
it's horses for courses.... you want a quick point to point car then a 16-18G are the turbos for you, quickish spooling turbos good for twisties or start stop driving 20G+ for braggin rights and big power figures, only any real use if you are looking for straight line power, not so much use chucking around the bendies.... Laggy!
07 August 2010, 03:51 PM
#18
Nope. Most respectable tuners that aren't FMIC salesman would probably agree that longer pipework = more lag. Common sense.
Like I said, whether you notice it or not is one thing, but it is there.
Like I said, whether you notice it or not is one thing, but it is there.
There shouldn't be any appreciable increase in boost threshold with an FMIC. It wouldn't be unusually to see better spoolup due to cooler intake charge after a sustained period of hard use. However, I would expect an increase in lag, ie the delay in time before you get boost after going WOT at some useful RPM.
07 August 2010, 03:51 PM
#19
Nope. Most respectable tuners that aren't FMIC salesman would probably agree that longer pipework = more lag. Common sense.
Like I said, whether you notice it or not is one thing, but it is there.
Like I said, whether you notice it or not is one thing, but it is there.
There shouldn't be any appreciable increase in boost threshold with an FMIC. It wouldn't be unusually to see better spoolup due to cooler intake charge after a sustained period of hard use. However, I would expect an increase in lag, ie the delay in time before you get boost after going WOT at some useful RPM.
07 August 2010, 03:53 PM
#20
...
Don't forget the pressure drop across the pipework and cooler on a FMIC install. The extra volume can also introduce surge and part throttle response issues that just don't exist on a TMIC.
The Type 25 Impreza runs a TMIC at over 400bhp and is designed for track use.
For the quickest throttle response and quick boost recovery after a gearshift a TMIC is the answer, I have retained a TMIC on my spec C with 450+bhp and 500+lbft of torque yet I have a few FMIC's sitting redundant on the shelf !
Its perfect for road use. For track use at over 450bhp I would consider A fmic
Here is what someone had to say recently about his move to a FMIC
More interesting reading here - https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...es-please.html
The Type 25 Impreza runs a TMIC at over 400bhp and is designed for track use.
For the quickest throttle response and quick boost recovery after a gearshift a TMIC is the answer, I have retained a TMIC on my spec C with 450+bhp and 500+lbft of torque yet I have a few FMIC's sitting redundant on the shelf !
Its perfect for road use. For track use at over 450bhp I would consider A fmic
Here is what someone had to say recently about his move to a FMIC
More interesting reading here - https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...es-please.html
07 August 2010, 04:03 PM
#21
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pmsl, that 3 years old.
npne of it backed up and only pure opinion, test have show that those don't hold water. NS04 went from top mount ot front mount and guess what no lag. harveys tested it. also the calculation thats based on just don't hold water at all
npne of it backed up and only pure opinion, test have show that those don't hold water. NS04 went from top mount ot front mount and guess what no lag. harveys tested it. also the calculation thats based on just don't hold water at all
07 August 2010, 04:04 PM
#22
OP: Well worth a read: https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...tercooler.html
So you know how to balance one person's opinion against anothers, Andy Forrests' credentials as a tuner speak for themselves and has no vested interest in either TMIC or FMIC sales. He just maps 100s of cars and knows what works.
So you know how to balance one person's opinion against anothers, Andy Forrests' credentials as a tuner speak for themselves and has no vested interest in either TMIC or FMIC sales. He just maps 100s of cars and knows what works.
07 August 2010, 04:05 PM
#23
OP: Well worth a read: https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...tercooler.html
So you know how to balance one person's opinion against anothers, Andy Forrests' credentials as a tuner speak for themselves and has no vested interest in either TMIC or FMIC sales. He just maps 100s of cars and knows what works.
So you know how to balance one person's opinion against anothers, Andy Forrests' credentials as a tuner speak for themselves and has no vested interest in either TMIC or FMIC sales. He just maps 100s of cars and knows what works.
07 August 2010, 04:07 PM
#24
Is actually quite interesting how many tuners actually do agree:
First off you've got to ask yourself why you want one? On it's own it will:-
You will also have to fit an induction kit.
If the car is used mainly on the road I would fit an STi7> top mount, you can pick these up for around £200-250 and you could possibly fit it yourself. This would handle anything the VF28 can chuck at it
- increase lag
- possibly cause some drivability issues, jerkiness on and off the throttle
- lower charge temperatures
You will also have to fit an induction kit.
If the car is used mainly on the road I would fit an STi7> top mount, you can pick these up for around £200-250 and you could possibly fit it yourself. This would handle anything the VF28 can chuck at it
Last edited by Aztec Performance Ltd; 07 August 2010 at 04:11 PM.
07 August 2010, 04:19 PM
#28
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alot, thingsd move on, problems get solved and methods change.
the recent test and reports say different findings, you argue the case in more or less evey thread and never have any hard fact or testing to respond when people post ther own fidings.
if you had anything recent that was proof rather than conjecture or opinion you might get my attention. but you never do.
the recent test and reports say different findings, you argue the case in more or less evey thread and never have any hard fact or testing to respond when people post ther own fidings.
if you had anything recent that was proof rather than conjecture or opinion you might get my attention. but you never do.
07 August 2010, 04:26 PM
#30
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Where are the log files that show a FMIC spools at the same RPM point as the STi TMIC? Same car, roughly same time, road etc? I'm not interested in RR graphs etc. Just interested...