top mount or front mount?
Three years ago was like in the dark ages where Subaru Tuning is concerned.
The extra lag caused by a front mount is seriously over done in my vast experience. Lag can be caused by many factors including the type of core, efficiency, the turbo itsef, mapping and so on so don't automatically blame the FMIC. Many people report no lag atall. If you change to a different turbo and FMIC at the same time please do not blame the FMIC. Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out probable lag and in worst case senario it is like .3 seconds or less.
Time = Volume/Flow Rate. You could factor in a multiplier if you wanted to account for the increased flow going from cruise to boost if that is what you want to measure.
Remeber the gains to be had from the improved intercooling from an efficient front mount.
1) Reduced pressure drop across the intercooler. For that I use a magnahelix guage.
2) Reduced charge temperature. Denser air = more power. To measure that I make frequent use of ACT guages.
There is actually a general rule of thumb in common use : 4degC = 1% power.
So take a hard pressed TMIC that may be running ACTs of 70degC (not an extreme example) An FMIC in the same conditions may run 30C. So a potential power difference of 10%. On a 400 bhp car that is 40bhp. WOW. That is a big power add on. Even with only a 20C drop in temperature you still have a 5% or 20 bhp gain.
Now if you are only going for a 20 deg drop in temperature maybe you should spend your money on something that will add more than 5% power for the cost of a front mount. I am not quite sure what you get for around £300 that will add 5% but we can look at that separately.
So much for theory. As far as I can see and in my experience, gains from an FMIC substantially outweigh any possible lag which is often undetectable. Earlier I gave an actual example of a car going from STi 8 TMIC to Hybrid GT FMIC. Gain is 18 bhp.
Here is another, a quote from the Billet turbo thread I have just come across today.
So there is another practical, documented example and there are numerous.
Here is another :
Steve Simpson's rally car with a 34mm restrictor. Murtaya with Type C engine. Steve, a very well known mapper around the world and particularly in Rally circles, could not get more than 292 bhp. We looked at the data logs and while air charge temperatures could be improved I also considered the intercooler was also a source of pressure drop. We fitted a hybrid GT core, Remapped and had 315 bhp almost immediately.
Steve had observed the results achieved during numerous mapping sessions and concluded himself there was a good possibility of a power increase. He is mapping cars every day of the week so he knows what works and what does not and with a rally car, the last thing you want is lag.
The trick for the owner is knowing at what point it is worth moving from a top mount to a front mount and I help dozens of guys with that. It is never clear cut and as many on here know, I will recommend against a front mount when I think it is unnecessary.
I do hope this helps remove some doubts or misconceptions.
The extra lag caused by a front mount is seriously over done in my vast experience. Lag can be caused by many factors including the type of core, efficiency, the turbo itsef, mapping and so on so don't automatically blame the FMIC. Many people report no lag atall. If you change to a different turbo and FMIC at the same time please do not blame the FMIC. Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out probable lag and in worst case senario it is like .3 seconds or less.
Time = Volume/Flow Rate. You could factor in a multiplier if you wanted to account for the increased flow going from cruise to boost if that is what you want to measure.
Remeber the gains to be had from the improved intercooling from an efficient front mount.
1) Reduced pressure drop across the intercooler. For that I use a magnahelix guage.
2) Reduced charge temperature. Denser air = more power. To measure that I make frequent use of ACT guages.
There is actually a general rule of thumb in common use : 4degC = 1% power.
So take a hard pressed TMIC that may be running ACTs of 70degC (not an extreme example) An FMIC in the same conditions may run 30C. So a potential power difference of 10%. On a 400 bhp car that is 40bhp. WOW. That is a big power add on. Even with only a 20C drop in temperature you still have a 5% or 20 bhp gain.
Now if you are only going for a 20 deg drop in temperature maybe you should spend your money on something that will add more than 5% power for the cost of a front mount. I am not quite sure what you get for around £300 that will add 5% but we can look at that separately.
So much for theory. As far as I can see and in my experience, gains from an FMIC substantially outweigh any possible lag which is often undetectable. Earlier I gave an actual example of a car going from STi 8 TMIC to Hybrid GT FMIC. Gain is 18 bhp.
Here is another, a quote from the Billet turbo thread I have just come across today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg320
hi kev,
what sort of power do you think i could achieve, running an sc46 billet on my forged 2.5 build,keeping the tmic
cheers
mark
Hi,
its difficult to say, the top mount will be the limiting factor though.
The STI 8, recently done, maxed out its top mount at 383 BHP, on the other hand a forged 2.5 made 460BHP with a front mount, so I imagine somewhere between the two.
I guess its a case of see what it does, it would be another graph to add to the portfolio, soon we will have a printout for most of the popular combinations.
cheers
Kev
Originally Posted by greg320
hi kev,
what sort of power do you think i could achieve, running an sc46 billet on my forged 2.5 build,keeping the tmic
cheers
mark
Hi,
its difficult to say, the top mount will be the limiting factor though.
The STI 8, recently done, maxed out its top mount at 383 BHP, on the other hand a forged 2.5 made 460BHP with a front mount, so I imagine somewhere between the two.
I guess its a case of see what it does, it would be another graph to add to the portfolio, soon we will have a printout for most of the popular combinations.
cheers
Kev
Here is another :
Steve Simpson's rally car with a 34mm restrictor. Murtaya with Type C engine. Steve, a very well known mapper around the world and particularly in Rally circles, could not get more than 292 bhp. We looked at the data logs and while air charge temperatures could be improved I also considered the intercooler was also a source of pressure drop. We fitted a hybrid GT core, Remapped and had 315 bhp almost immediately.
Steve had observed the results achieved during numerous mapping sessions and concluded himself there was a good possibility of a power increase. He is mapping cars every day of the week so he knows what works and what does not and with a rally car, the last thing you want is lag.

The trick for the owner is knowing at what point it is worth moving from a top mount to a front mount and I help dozens of guys with that. It is never clear cut and as many on here know, I will recommend against a front mount when I think it is unnecessary.
I do hope this helps remove some doubts or misconceptions.
Last edited by harvey; Aug 9, 2010 at 02:20 PM.
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