toneh

iTrader: (1)

Yes I agree John it doesn't matter DIY or not either can be fine ,and I wouldn't say universally ripping people off , but if Someone mapped a few cars that made nice power and a couple were high power big budget builds it would raise there mapping status ( which I also agree it should ) but should it also raise the price that is charged ,and then passed down to the little guys
It seems status is dictating prices not the job in hand

Boost luver

iTrader: (3)

As jayallen said there is a lot out there for evo's like geekmappers but there ain't much for scoobys, I had my evo mapped by a geek and always hit 525-530 on different dyno's.
I think it's great what toneh is saying as "some" of the costs are fricking crazy and iv had a engine built by the same company and mapped by the same company, it went boom and they would not cover costs (companys they always have a exit door to get out of and it always ends up not there fault)
Hats off to who ever has a go if I could do my version 4 I would but the start up costs for mysrlf ie ecu ,cables ,paying for software out weighs the cost of a esl which I opted for unless someone can get me the esl software

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

I've been a mapping 'hobbyist' for 4 years now, but haven't touched the Carberry Rom, so wasn't sure. If you can log Mafv and it's in a stock air intake it could give you/us an idea of how well your calibration is performing. That's the only reason I asked.

jayallen

iTrader: (31)

Im pretty sure thats available...

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Like I said mate please accept my apologies
This is why we need a section to discuss things like this
Totally my mistake ,,,,,, thought you were out to get me , you know how touchy and gobby I am lol

Cheers tony

john banks

toneh, can I ask if you are an employee or self-employed? Questioning how much you accept are fixed costs of operating a mapping business properly, and the difference between turnover and profit.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Well even though I've had my fair share of stick over this thread ,its cool to see the whole mapping thing come together
By the look of things a dedicated section would work I'm sure
Tbh I never thought it would roll on like this

Boost luver

iTrader: (3)

Iv emailed esl direct and had no reply do you no where I could obtain it from pal? Pm me if it's easier
Regards

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I still don't see anymore mappers, conspicuous by there absence!!

Guilty of the accusation?

I know they must be reading this, and using the excuse that they are on a hiding to nothing.

But there are a lot of you out there that are making a very good living out of this community, and the fact that you refuse to show your faces REALLY DOES SAY IT ALL.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Ive been both sides John , the garage I helped set up is still going , not pulling any trees up but doing ok
Yes I accept the costs can be very high as Paul explained and I totally understand , now he might be able to justify his costs but there is no doubt about it , mapping is a bandwagon that some have jumped on and see a good return on there outlay
Don't forget not all mappers have the latest state of the art rr
And a lot are mobile
Yes I understand traveling costs and maybe expenses even factor in the cost of the gear det cans , w/b , software , laptop ,
But come on fuel and a day and let's say 3 cars at 2/300 and that's considered cheap , that's minimum £600 - fuel a day
They may say well that's all I had on that week
Nope that's never gonna wash , that's busness good weeks and bad you can't average your price because of your work load to make a living ( but as Paul said he knows some are turning out 3 a day , for how many days I don't know ,
So who's kidding who here

toneh

iTrader: (1)

You're so cynical , I'm so glad I'm not like you

Pmsl

jayallen

iTrader: (31)

I thought it would of been available via their website...Im pretty sure the early boards(pre 96) came with an option for buying the lead and mapping software.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

No idea sadly mate, we have never sold a pro drive calibration so dont know the trade, nor retail prices of it.
Regardless though, like any product, it has to offer enough profit to sustain the running costs of the business, the advertising to get you to the door, the labour to supply, the aftercare / support that may be required and the potential costs of liability should problems occur.

MDS_WRX

iTrader: (1)

Isn't that the same for any trade though? If you are good at your job you command a good price. If someone is better than you at it they will command more than you. Seems fair enough to me that you pay more for a better service?

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

I think what Tony was asking is in your opinion how much should a "off the shelf map cost" as like mentioned prodrive is straight off the shelf reflash of the ecu and on your way so to speak, so all the people with minor mods i.e exhaust, filter, injectors etc etc, is it not the case then that they could sell an off the shelf map for people with the usual bolt on mods at a fixed price, as many on here do the "typical" mods which in any case they have to get to that point before they can push for more power, surely it would be seen as a way forward and mappers can sell "an off the shelf map at £ x amount which in turn customers know that they have paid for a base map basically from what i can make out, or at least that is where most of the criticisms have come from throught this thread that mappers simply use a base map and alter things to suit from there and is not that specific to each car, so how in this case are customers paying for a persons time?

Surely if people can get through 3 cars a day and can take anywhere between 2-3 hrs per car to alter settings or so it has been pointed out, by the time you take their travelling times in to account, surely this shows there must be some kind of base map they use anyway! or at least it looks that way to me from what i have read, so surely they could design something and market it as 1 size fits all for £X amount, and if people would rather take this route then so be it, making it perfectly clear that it mat not be the best solution and no responsibility lies with the mapper for any after effects, then it would be a choice to pay for their time or pay for a flash map, at least then mappers cant get accused of pulling peoples pants down and apparently rapping them of their finances, it would be a choice and if prodrive can do it, surely it shows us it works long term and im sure that the guys on here are more than capable of coming up with some kind of 1 map fits all soloution, it would still be better than the ppp and put a smile on their faces

john banks

toneh, why don't you jump on the bandwagon, charge what you're suggesting and leave the day job?

I have huge sympathy with DIY and pride myself in developing a range of skills (especially those which draw on other apparently unrelated skills to allow novel approaches) and use professionals only when I have to. Of the skills I develop, I market some of them to see how well they make me a living and how I enjoy them. Don't we all do the same?

Two of the jobs I've done have come under fire on this bbs for being overpaid, and my reply is often similar - go and do it yourself and see how you get on...

Tidgy

ah the good old generic maps :l ol1:

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

It doesnt need to be uk based, welcome to the internet what it does give you is alot of input from people using OS, but hey, if you dont want to use it because its not UK based, not an issue though i would have thought you would have atleast searched for a forum that did OS ecu mapping/information before starting your endeavour

http://forums.openecu.org/

Tony

toneh

iTrader: (1)

I've nothing against non uk based but a couple of benefits I can see is for the most part we will be talking about edm cars
And also more chance to meet up with other members to further your learning ect
Whereas I don't really flying to the us to plug my laptop in
Yes I know there are uk members on other forums but not in large numbers
And do you not think I've been on said forums ?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

I did consider it john but like I said I enjoy it as a hobby and when it becomes your livelihood things change , as I'm sure you know

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Hats off to Paul for coming into this thread, just a shame some of the other well known names didn't have the *****. Strange as when someone asks about who to map their car they are straight in.

Putting the car on the dyno won't prove much, but it will allow 'a pro' to plug into your ecu and run their eye over it. Maybe they could post up their findings hey.

john banks

Things can change when it is your livelihood, but you would be motivated by your mission to offer good value, and if your assessment of things is correct you'd do very well in the mapping market. It may well be that part of your not wanting to do it commercially is that you aren't too sure of the position you've argued in the thread?

Tidgy

most can't be bothered with scoobynet anymore mate. Some do occasionaly venture on here but tend to find they cant be bothered with all the people who have all the gear but no idea yet argue the case all the time.

Gigsy

In the US, they have the Cobb Access Port which is a bit like the BlueFin things from SuperChips. It comes with 3 or 4 (?) generic maps developed for various states of tune (e.g. stock, stage 1 - decat center + panel filter + backbox, stage 2, stage 3, etc).

You can then modify your car to whichever stage and flash the appropriate map on it. It's not as good as a custom map of course as Cobb need to ensure a good safety margin to cope with variations between cars but for a lot of people, it's good enough. Once you go beyond the level of tune on your Access Port, I believe you can then get new maps from them.

The difficulty for the pro-mappers would be copy protecting their work, BUT, if a customer was prepared to pay EcuTek for their EasyECU software, then I don't think there is anything stopping them selling off the shelf maps(?). Assuming they can, I'm a little surprised that they're not doing this to be honest as it's good for their profit margins (repeat selling of the same map, takes as much time as it takes to send an email) and it would fill a gap in the market for those customers who don't want to spend £600 on a custom map but who would be prepared to pay say £300 for EasyECU and a generic map.

I suspect that EcuTek are the limiting factor here though, for example I don't know what EasyECU costs or whether there are clauses in the dealer contracts that prevent the mappers from doing this.

As I've said before, EcuTek are the real problem as they are the only company selling the pro mapping software for Subarus/Mitsubishi (AFAIK) and thus can lock people in and name their own price... Software generally has at least a 70% profit margin and once the development costs are paid for, it's closer to 100% so £300 for a license just to allow a mapper to recalibrate your ECU really is criminal, especially when they charge the mapper a fortune for their software as well. I'd like to see a representative from the company come on here and justify the license cost!

Personally, I believe that if the cost of entry was lower, more people would get their cars remapped which would counter balance any reduction in price. Certainly, if the prices were lower for their other products, more people would buy EasyECU & Delta Dash and ultimately, EcuTek would make more profit.

Tidgy

where has this £300 figure come from?

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

[Upholding the Jeremy Clarkson stereotype] Ton'eh, do you drive a Coss'eh?

Tail Slider

Without Scoobynet i doubt they would have much of a business. Besides, they dont need to come on here they can bank on you running back and forth telling tales like a little school kid!

http://bbs.22b.com/forums/showthread...798#post346798

john banks

I worked for Cobb until recently. The AccessPort at the time didn't have international (ie non-US) Subaru support so that may explain the lack of information about it. However, whilst there are staged maps available, there were two different methods by which the vehicle could be custom tuned. One was by the end user with the (free) AccessTuner Race, and one was by a professional tuner with the (paid) AccessTuner Pro which were identical except that the Pro software could tune any AccessPort where as the free Race software could only tune one individual AccessPort. Not only could it be completely custom tuned, but there are supported modifications for speed density and launch control, plus the ability to retune the engine whilst it is running (ie not having to turn it off to reflash). Unless I underestimate the present Bluefin, it is quite a different kettle of fish.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

You only need to look at the number of authorised advertisers to realise how much business this site generates. Nice response BTW.

Gigsy

This was the figure mentioned earlier in the thread.

I was more meaning that it was a handheld device that you could flash your ECU with. The AccessPort definitely has more flexibility, especially given what you've said re being able to custom tune with them too - I had thought previously that you could just flash preset maps on to the ECU (which would have made it more like the BlueFin).


PS Am assuming the pun was intended?