john banks

There can be a hint of naiveity when people "discover" open source/DIY mapping for the first time. Their excitement with tweaking their own and a few friends' cars can spill over into provocative forum threads like this one. It happens all over the forums and has done for years.

The same arguments apply to the use of sometimes expensive "professionals" in many walks of life. The sensible balance is somewhere in the middle and varies from professional to professional and customer to customer.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Please stop it , opinion does seem divided on the levels of skill required in mapping but please , supertuners , why oh why are folks hell bent on elevating certain mappers to a god like status
Some are very good at what they do I agree , and so they should be with the amount of time they've been doing it
But supertuners , what next super turbo fitters ,
It's becoming embarrassing now

Tail Slider

Maybe the OP's thread title wasn't the way to open up a thread discussing self mapping but from what i can see the basis of his thread is that anyone can map a car, and why not if you have the time, passion and confidence to try it. Only then will you have the ability to learn and understand.

I cant believe there are people knocking the thought of people trying this, what's going to happen when the current crop of mappers hang up their laptops? Will there be no more mappers? Because that seems to be the thought of some posting on this thread, their understanding seems to be that this "black art" called mapping can only be achieved by a selected few, chosen by the gods from birth and not mastered by mere mortals.

In any trade, the more you are exposed to something the better you become but everyone has to start somewhere including those who are regarded as the best mappers in the country. They didn't wake up one day with the skill to map, they honed their skills through practice and obviously made mistakes along the way, they are only human after all.

poolio74

Have to agree with you on that one.There is alot of hero worship on this site.i.e My mappers better than your mapper thing.Its a bit sad really.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Did you mean Porsche ?

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

but you surely your paying for the skills which they have honed over the years and they have hopefully made the mistakes and wont repeat them on your car.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

no porch over his front door

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Yes there is a certain amount of novelty factor when you first start but I've started this thread not to say I can do that or this
It's because it soon became apparent that somthings not right , the price charged generally , doesn't seem to match the work involved
Now what I'm saying is if I , or other individuals on here can map our cars with relative ease , how come top mappers charge so much when they can do it blindfolded ,,, so the established get all the glory and gain even more experience and keep there closed shop and charge what they want
It's never gonna change with the narrow minded mentality I'm seeing here

playtime

iTrader: (1)

I have to stongly agree with john on this one also

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Don't matter what he put mate , we know what he meant
I'm not the best speller at all
It's a thread about mapping , not a spelling competition
So I'd rather keep off the spelling jibes mate
( I've been in threads like that before and it gets stupid )

Cheers tony

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Have you bought a wideband yet?

Moley

iTrader: (9)

And i don't remember seeing a reply about the det cans

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

yes there is he said earlier he had some.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Chaps like I've said , this is not about me or my mapping Or my car
It's about others out there , and can they justify what they charge
now I know they don't have to justify anything to anyone and have the right to turn round and say , wtf has it got to do with you
But it would shed some light on the situation
If any of the top mappers want to join in and put the record straight and put me in my place then they are welcome and I will give my sincere apologies and say I was wrong with my assumptions
And crawl back into my hole
I can't say fairer than that can I

Tail Slider

Im not debating their fee, their fee is their fee, its customers who will decide if its expensive or by not using their service.

My point is that some seem to think that anyone who tries mapping should have their heads shaved in humiliation in front of jeering crowds at the thought of attempting it.

Its no secret that mapping is a closed shop so where is the next generation of mappers coming from? Have they trainees like other trades or is the next generation the people who have the drive, determination and the passion to learn, which is no doubt how the the current crop of mappers started.

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

I have had my car mapped 4 or 5 times in the years I have owned it for various mods. It would have been far more cost effective to either have had all the mods done at once and then have it mapped, or learn to do it myself. The problem with either of these scenarios is that a) I couldn't afford all the mods at one go, and b) I don't want (perhaps can't) to be a mapper.

I have used Paul @ Zen and Racedynamix, and I have to say that whatever it has cost me in mapping fees, it is the level of confidence in their skill to provide the maximum gains from my modifications coupled with a sensible margin of safety that keeps me going back.

Do I think that either of them would supply me with a new engine if it went bang in the course of a mapping session? No. I wasn't born yesterday. I'm a big boy and I understand the risks in pushing mechanical devices beyond their design parameters. If I ask them to map a crap engine, I'm sure to get a crap result.

The basic premise is that I don't want to think that the person mapping my ecu doesn't have all the necessary information and current techniques to hand. If he's self taught, how do I know he's getting the best out of the engine? That assurance only comes with reputation built on long standing experience. And I think you have to pay for that.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Yes your point is also very valid and I agree fully

Pavlo

What process is that?

How does knock sound with very high octane race fuel? Are you sure you will recognise it?

How do you know if you're crank sensor is wired in properly?

How do you look for knock from raw knock traces?

Should you go with more fuel and advance or leaner with less advance?

How do you tune VVT to give the best spread of torque?

How do you get closed loop fuel control to give tight fuel control without cycling at idle?

How do you get car to idle steadily with no idle valve?

How can you adjust an ECU to reduce the exhaust noise and get through a noise test?

How do you get a 4cyl engine to make 1000hp and live to tell the tale?

How do you tune the boost control to cover to give tight control in all conditions?

How do you get good cold start performance and drive off while maintaining clean plugs in all conditions?

How do you get the last 10hp out of the car and retain an element of safety?

How do you tune fuel and ignition for individual cylinders?

How do you establish the lag time of an injector you have no experience or data on?

How to you problem solve when the target car isn't running properly?

How do you time non VVT cams for best power or best spool or the best compromise of both?

How do you tell the difference between a leaking injector and a leaking boost pipe causing rich running?

How do you identify a single injector with suspect lag time?

Yes all of these things are possible to get right (but there are many more problems to solve) and many people could do them if they put their mind to it, but there is a difference in the end result even between mappers that current do it for a living, let alone between a highly experienced mapper and a hobbyist doing it for some money on the side. Good luck to you if you decide to do more of this, and lets hope your future work stands up your comments on this thread.

But quite frankly I'm shocked at how you can make such sweeping statements when you have such little experience. To assume that everything will always be the same and you can just plug in the numbers and it will be okay. You haven't had a go with every ECU on the market, you haven't tried to map a wide range a cars yet you're telling the people that have how it's done??!!

When things are going according to plan it can be a relatively easy process. But remember if you are the last person to map or even check a car and confirm it to be "okay" then running problems from thereon in are your responsibility. You get to a car that's being a pain, like an awkward MAF scale on an OEM ECU for an odd induction kit that has a different response with road speed, or a very surge prone turbo that screws up the boost control and the fuelling, and then you will have a little more work to do, and you will be expected to perform and complete the job so someone can drive home. That's when you have to earn the money, and if you have a car like that, and it takes 10 hours to map, should you charge £600 for something that other people charge an "expensive" £300 for 2-3 hours work?

Give you up your job for a year and then come and tell us how you got making mapping your sole source of income doing it all for the real price while the "pros" are ripping everyone off.

d4vidh

So the map tweaks work out at say £150 for a tweak which may take an hour to do. So this equates to £120 per hour + VAT for the mappers time. I think you would find that a main dealer hourly rate is not a million miles off this. I for one do not class it as expensive and it really does come down to choice.

If you think it is too expensive don't pay it. If you want to have a go your self then by all means away you go. It may not be 'rocket science' but for those of us who have it done by a professional do so for a) Piece of mind, b)Dont have the time or interest to have a go ourselves.

Remeber they are doing it to make a living not to rip people off.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

toneh you have started an excellent thread and was expecting your replies to go "jimmyinrugby" by now but you answer them all in a great manner.

good luck with your mapping! you seem to have a good starting knowledge.

beliblisk

iTrader: (16)

Is there any logic behind them charging less if they dont have to? As far as i know they do 300-400 cars per year and its obviouse they have their scedules full(i bet same amount of cars would be maped by them if they charged half less).

I am from Slovenia and when big enough group gatheres we arrange for Bob to come and map our scoobys.I am totaly satisfied with his service (remember he has to flight here to do the job) while he could easily do mapping sessions on the same day back in UK earning same $$$.

I totally understand that is a huge rate per hour but like people wrote:we do pay for skill and knowledge not just "work hour".

When folks build their beasts for 5k+ those 200 pounds for map doesnt really sounds a lot.....but then again if you are doing it 5 times per year always changing things then you really should look into it.

Mapping your own car is probably as fun as any other car related stuff(cleaining,waxing).Thats the way every true mapper started modding their own ride

Idea for forum part related to self mapping is cool and i am sure more folks would give it a try if some data base of experience would exsist

...Oh yes pardon my english:P

CharlySkunkWeed

iTrader: (7)

why does the comparison of building a brick wall keep comming up ? If you are using this as an example , the OP is saying he could build a wall himself and it wont fall down. If he paid a pro to do it at a higher price he will still have a wall.

Its more the scaremongering he is getting at that if u dont get it mapped by a pro , it'll blow up.

like saying if a pro doesnt build his wall , it'll fall down. No it wont. It might , if he does a really bad jod though.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Agreed, but as he owns one I'd guess he'd be able to spell it

Pavlo

Many people can map cars, and they can do it without destroying the engine.

But enough people that sell their mapping services do a really bad job, I've seen the results myself, some from amateur and a few from "pros". If you start with the right attitude and approach it's possible to pick up experience along the way without causing damage though.

Mapping is not a closed shop, but if someone has figured out a way of doing things and they can use it to help them make their living they aren't going to give away that knowledge for nothing. As far as better mappers taking less time, it seems slightly odd to suggest that the better the mapper is the cheaper the service should become. If a mapper with 10years of experience can turn around a job in 1 hour that a hobbyist takes 3 hours to do, should they only charge £50 to the hobbyists £150, even though the customer has saved 2 hours of the their precious time?

If someone wanted to get into it properly, then the costs do spiral, especially when looking at buying a rolling road, having a premises, professional indemnity and public liability insurance, road risk insurance, more interface cables, laptops (frequently used mapping laptops often last about 1 year to 18 months), expensive software (open source doesn't do or cover everything, especially new models on the week of release).

If someone wants to do it, fair play, they should be encouraged, especially if they are keen to learn and gain new experiences, with an open mind.

If someone wants to tell me I'm ripping everyone off and making a mint in the process (perhaps the Mrs has spent it all without me knowing????) AND that they now know in a few weeks what I've been soaking up for 10 years, then it wouldn't surprise me that the mapping community gives them a bit of a frosty reception.

Cheers

Paul
Zen Performance Ltd

powerwrx

iTrader: (11)

99greenwagon

iTrader: (39)

stuart69

iTrader: (1)

Why did you have to reveal so soon

DukeBoy

iTrader: (3)

I'm all for saving money, how much would you charge to map my Bugeye and when could you come down to the south coast to do it?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Hi Paul , first of all I would like to thank you for joining in
And your reply
The first point in question is equipment , I totally agree a nice set up costs a hell of a lot of money and for very obvious reasons , your or others cost may be slightly higher which I can totally understand
Second I must say without doubt you will know your stuff , and I have never said otherwise
Now here's the crux of the matter , most posts on here are from average guys who have done a few mods , exhaust , turbo , induction what we would call minor stuff
Now when I started modding my car I went to 3 tuners and without hesitation said ecutek , why ? No alternatives or even asking to what extent the mods I had done
My thread title may be a large genralisation but in my opinion so are mapping prices , example how many company's do you see mapping from £300 now that cant be right , because you know as well as me billy whizz who's just fitted a decat or induction will not need the in depth mapping session than that of a high spec race or street car
Like its been said I've sneezed in my car , oh you need a remap
I don't feel that folk are being given the best advice and paying for somthing they don't need (or may I say overkill)
I'm in no doubt you get a pig of a job that takes an age
On the flip side you will also get the little tweak jobs , which if it's anything to go by on here that's all that most need
as for insurance costs ect ect , I know mate I used to run a garage but left my brother to carry on , too much hassle and stress
So to sum up why arnt most cars mapped on merit (i,e tweak) rather than being bundled under the £300 map umbrella ?

Tony

kezwaldo

everyone check out rapidremap.com tel me what you all think of this diy job