**** !!!!

Remind me never to get directions from you when out hill-walking.....

Aye, I'm 100% certain it's just over that ridge ....




....Aaaaaaaaaargh

 

That's certainly part of it but I think you feel that humans will eventually understand everything (given time). But I don't thing they will. Sorry to harp on about the dimensional thing but I don't think that humans will crack that particular nut.
But then you know about string theory and I don't

 

So you have faith in the Abrahamic god, but haven't read any of the holy books that it's claimed are his words? Interesting, so on what are you basing your faith if you haven't read the cornerstone documents of that faith?

 

"know about" hmmm, only in laymans terms from what I have read on the net. I can understand some of the high level concepts and I think that they are at least plausible, but then I think some of the other suggestions are also plausible, unfortunately an intelligent creator isn't one of the suggestions that falls in to my plausible category.

 

Sorry about the delay in responding Suresh W**k got in the way

I think this:

Immediately after a balanced and reasonable post (novel in itself, I know) by Moses would qualify as baiting him

For the record I strongly disagree with the vast majority of what Moses has to say However, it is his opinion, and I believe he is entitled to both hold it, and express it and I for one feel that SN would be a far less entertaining place without him

For what it's worth I tend to disagree with what you have to say very rarely, but I do feel that if you (and others) are prepared to goad him to the extent that you do, you must be prepared to accept at least some of the responsibilty for the result



I hope for your sanity's sake they've got it sorted before the final game of the season, because you ain't taking anything home from Anfield

 

There is no danger of that. Of that I am 110% certain

 

You don't have to have read the entire bible to be a christean or to have christean beliefs,the bible/christeanity can be taught by word of mouth its called preaching, or in the days when RE at school was RE and not the socioligy its now turned into.

I have read parts of the bible, i have seen religious TV programes/films depicting biblical events, i have had many discusions with padre's when in the forces. I have on occasions been to church, i have discussed religion with friend families and colleges, that how i have developed what not quite 100% faith i have in the Abrahamic God

 

I'll have a look through that site when i have time looks interesting

"Look, all I said was 'this piece of halibut is good enough for Jehovah' "



It may not be true, I was under the impression that it was the general consensus at the time that he was going to end up off the end of the world. That's what I recall from 'history' at school.

Having said that, if you thought the world was flat and navigated by the stars it would be highly confusing I think So i'm probably wrong.


Well I certainly don't read christian fiction (with exception to the parts of the bible i've read) I remember reading that bit whilst bored in a hotel room in Mississippi of all places and particularly thinking I'd quote it as it was a right good one to mess up the religious then promptly forgot all about it until I read this thread. That was a good few years ago now.

I actually have a long trip coming up this weekend so I'll see if I can look it up if I have internet. I doubt I will but you've got me thinking now..

As for the new testament superseding the old one, well just another reason it was all made up to control people. We don't like the old rules so we'll just change them to suit ourselves.

 

I never said you "had" to read it, it just surprises me how few Christians actually have read their holy book. Preaching is fine, but only really covers a few caefully selected points. If you read it all, it may give you a different perspective, it certainly strengthened my beliefs.

You seem to be only looking at things that will afirm your belief. Have you considered looking at other sources of information to see if it corroborates what you know? I may well be an atheist, but I make an effort to read a great deal of religious material, be that the bible or commentary on christian sites, it's all part of keeping an open mind and being open to new ideas and evidence.

I am confident there is no god, not a 100% but 99.9%, however, I continue seeking out evidence that will either further confirm my beliefs or may one day suggest that they are wrong, at which point I will change my position.

 

Then this thread has all been worth while, even if you come to the same conclusion that you are already at, IMO we only advance by continually seeking out knowledge and challenging the status quo.

 

Stone him!!!!

 

Are there any Women here today

 

With all due respect, am i the only one wondering how enlightened your views are likely to be given that you can't spell Christian or Christianity. Sorry if that's a cheap shot, but really. Are you in the "because i just DO believe" camp?

 

Have to say oly, atleast you have a well formed argument unlike many who use one liners in an attempt to belittle others.

For me again comes down to Faith, i believe there will never be 100% proof only Faith, and yes i do look for things to affirm my faith, Just as the earlier mentioned Padre needs the church to affirm his belief. i want to have faith, but my faith is a little weak TBH and i would say i have Hope there is a God and will continue to say my prayers each night (which reminds of another Padre's comments to me- he admitted to not praying at night probabt 2 or 3 times a week) . but there will allways be that 5 or possibly 10% doubt(notice the use of the word hope) there is a God. Now i have said that Que all the comments ref people not wanting to accept there is nothing after death so look to a God.

 

1% proof would be a start

Indeed. It seems you desperately want to believe and aren't prepared to even consider the other option. The danger is of course that if you actually dig deeper in to the roots of your faith, there is a good chance you will find things that don't add up as well. Most of the former christians turned atheist that I know became so through studying the bible.

So you don't have faith that there is a god, you just hope there is one? It seems to me you are in turmoil, questioning your faith but not prepared to risk exploring what else is out there.

Just because your scared of dying and don't want to consider death is just the end doesn't actually mean that there is something after death of course. I'm quite happy to accept that death is the end, it's a great motivator for squeezing the last drop out of life. I'm not afraid of death but nor do I relish the thought of it, I just accept it.

 

Thank you, and I do appreciate you openess in discussing the matter rather than hand waving and hiding away from the subject.

As I've stated before, this isn't about "conversion", it's just about getting people to stay open minded, consider and research both sides of the argument and make an informed decision. Too many people have only the religious side, and a heavily edited version at that, and won't even consider the alternatives. I can honestly say that I have and continue to look at both sides of the argument and weigh up the evidence each presents.

 

You cannot have 1% proof. Proof is an absolute... it is 0% or 100%.

Like you, Olly, I am interested in religion. I have two good friends who are Muslim and I work for an Israeli company and I am interested in the views and opinions of both. I read the excerpts of the Quran my friends quote, and join in the Jewish celebrations of my workmates. I was raised as a Christian (Methodist) so I think I have an adequate knowledge of various faiths.

Despite all this I am a committed atheist... all the so-called 'proofs' of god I hear are just woolly lame excuses and nonsensical quotes. I have an open mind, I would love to hear some logical reason for the existence of god but I am yet to hear anything remotely convincing.

 

If Jesus was the "king of the Jews" how come its the catholic religion who follow him? and not the Jewish religion?

And why is the pope and the vatican city in Italy, you would have thought it would want to be right on the birthpace of the religion (nazereth)?

Mart

 

But that's why you can't "argue" with a "believer".

Whatever you say to them they just come back with - eventually - "but I believe in god"

With that level of brain washing there's little point in arguing - so all that is left is one liners.

Right - If there is a real god I ask him to strike me down right now and kill me outright !

 

 

Come on God - What you a chicken or something.


Guess he's not listening just now.

Dozy ****** creates the whole universe and can't blot out one little piece of it - Splitter

 

........


And anyway - I thought it was agreed that this was boring.

SN is not a religous soap box - get back to your cocklinks !

 

So what your saying is you have nothing productive to say so in annoyance at your own inability to engage in an open discusion you resort to childish jibes and immature comments on brain washing, no one has brain washed me i made my own choices and am happy to hear what inteligent people such as Olly have to say on the debate. So if you find the arguement boring stop trolling and got to a diffrent thread.

Were you brain washed into deciding you were a non beliver!??? Your alleged brain washing arguement works both ways. Once again for the record as previous stated i didn't vote for option 1. I cn also see both sides of the arguments but i make MY decision based on what I believe not what im told to believe.

 

Interesting point actually, if you had been brainwashed you would believe that you'd made your own choices to get to that point. We could, and probably do all suffer this to some extent on a minor scale.

For example, if you taught a child from birth that dinosaurs still lived in austrailia, through home schooling or whatever they'd believe that until proved otherwise. If others that they met went along with this it could quite easily last into adulthood. That's being brainwashed.

In fact teaching children Newtonian physics is a prime example, we know it's not fact, but it looks like it works (and it does for our purposes) so unless you study further you'd never know.

Now apply the same to religion and what do you get, you can't just go to heaven and say, oh look god's not here - either the aussie dinosaurs have eaten him or he doesn't exist. Therein lies a problem I think.

Can you honestly say that's not brainwashing, just because it's widely accepted?

 

Two question for believers

1) Why did GOD put the Dinosaurs on the planet for hundreds of millions of years before man?

2) If GOD is so good and we are his children why do we have such pain and suffering on the planet every day?

If you don't believe in GOD then there is no need to prove that there is one. If you do believe in GOD then the onus lies with you to prove that there is!

 

Well, Mark, according to current world actions, actually the onus is on you to prove something doesn't exist. Iraqi WMD, anyone?

FWIW I'm an atheist turned agnostic turned christian. I view athiesm as a statment of faith as strong as christianity or any other religion. It's an absolute and anyone who declares themselves athiest lays themselves open to all the same accusations of closed mindedness and brainwashing as those who declare their faith.

Do I need to justify my beliefs? Nope. I've been down that road too many times right here to do it again - if you want to know where I stand then search for it. Your faith, your belief is your business and as long as you're happy with it and it doesn't harm anyone else then, as Dave Allen used to say, may your God go with you...

SB

 

If that was an invitation for me then for 1) and 2) I have no idea.

For my needing to prove that God exists of course I don't have to prove anything unless I go around knocking on doors or condeming people that don't believe. Neither of which I am inclined to do. But I think it would be an impossible task anyway.

The brainwashing comments earlier are interesting. If you teach a child that 3 x 2 = 6 then that is learning. If you teach the same child that hitting old ladies is wrong is that brainwashing? If children are brought up with a set of rules doesn't that lead to a better society all round? Most of the basic religious "rules" seem reasonable but they get dreadfully misinterpreted and twisted by the fantatics and it all goes pear shaped. I'm just saying that brainwashing is not all bad dl

 

Well I wonder what the fine line is then. Maybe it's only that if it's something not in line with what's generally acceptable in society it's brainwashing. If you try to quantify that your head will spin.

Possibly it's more along the lines of re-programming an adult mind to an irrational state without the victims knowledge. Certainly the case with cults and extremists.

In that case what about those american kids mentioned in the 'religious nutters ahoy' thread. Is that brainwashing?



In either case organised religion couldn't be accused of that, just of treating conjecture as fact then teaching people it as the truth. How can you define that?

 

As you say RB it's what's considered "normal" (whatever that means ) in the society you happen to live in at the time.

That American thing was appalling. I suppose an answer there is to let your kids make up their own minds once that are at a half sensible age. dl

 

Like eleventeen?