I would agree with you regarding atheists who claim there is absolutely zero possibility of there being an intelligent creator.

However there are various definitions and "shades" of atheism, and whilst I would call myself an atheist I would sill admit that there is a chance that a god does exist...just that one isn't needed to explain our existance and given the evidence the chance of a god existing is a very very tiny one indeed.

I would be interested in what converted you from atheism to christianity. If this is posted elsewhere and you could link the relevant post that would be much appreciated.

Gary.

 

I'm not sure I agree. The ten commandments when implemented "by the book" seem far from it. Following dogma even when it causes demonstrable harm and suffering, and portraying belief without evidence as virtuous don't seem that reasonable to me either.

 

Doesn't that make you an agnostic, Gary ?

Andy

 

Most of the commandments seem to make sense to me and be pretty reasonable. You could take issue with with the first few about honouring the Lord etc but it would be difficult to say that these are unreasonable?

Honor your father and your mother
You shall not kill.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet your neighbor's house
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife...

(apologies I hate cut'n paste posts )

Not sure what stuff you had in mind when talking about following dogma which causes harm? Except for stuff which is misinterpreted. Although I guess the old testament "eye for an eye" could cause grief.

 

Yes you could probably argue that the position is agnostic and I'd have to agree, but only up to the point that I think the probability of god existing is of the same order of magnitude as leprachauns, goblins, fairies and Bertrand Russell's chocolate teapot orbiting the sun.

 

What about the commandment not to work on the Sabbath? This is punishable by death. (There is quite an entertaining video about this and related issues here: Why Won't God Heal Amputees?).

But surely once you are in a position where you are picking and choosing which religious "rules" make sense, then by definition you're saying that man is a better arbiter on what is moral than religion?

There are plenty of examples. Parents refusing to let their children have medical treatment, the stance against condom use causing millions to die of AIDS in Africa etc.

Gary.

 

But you haven't answered any of my questions, you’re just bleating on about faith, which is the ultimate Christian cop out. I have my faith and that’s that, but I'm sorry it just won’t do. You have no proof so you use the old trump card faith.

How does your faith deal with the FACT that Dinosaurs were on this earth millions of years before man? The bible says that GOD created the heaven and the earth and then created man within 7 days. Now this obviously isn’t the case as we have hundreds of thousands of fossils of animals that dominated the plant millions of years before man came along. Can't remember the book of Genesis mentioning dinosaurs!!!!!

 

Errr - the claim was "We the US / UK believe there are WMD in Iraq". It was down to them to prove that there were, they failed. The onus is on the one making the claim. You could make similar claims about every country on the planet, however, apart from a few where we already know they have WMD, the default position is that they don't otherwise we'd be invading every country.

Not sure how the absence of a belief in gods when none have ever been proved requires faith. To belive they exist without evidence does however require faith.

I've said earlier that I am open minded, I continue to research and if the evidence ever turns up I'll happily change my opinion.

 

Gary - I was simply saying that the basic creeds of most religions seem to be pretty reasonable. I think the examples you cite don't come from the basic elements but from people's own interpretations, some for innocent reasons but a lot more from a selfish basis.

Of course one gets into muddy waters with subjects like abortion, condom use (as you point out), and, for example blood tranfusions. My own view is to take a common sense view based on what I feel is correct. Of course kids should have medical treatment and if condoms save lives then terrific.

But I am a bit of a tree hugger - I don't believe in capital punishment and I would have to think very hard if I was asked to go to Iraq and shoot people

 

Have you read the bible? Its one of the nastiest books ever created. It's full of ethnic hatred and intolerance. It doesn’t even promote family values, Jesus says in the bible that “those that don’t leave their families, friends and wife’s to worship me have no place in the kingdom of heaven”, now that seems cultish to me. All god does in the book of Genesis is ethnic cleans any race that doesn’t believe in him. Moses what a ****, if he was alive today he'd be up for genocide and we are supposed to look to those books for guidance.

Don't look to the bible or the book of genesis for guidance you may just end up a hatful bigot.

 

Bleating my ****. I don't have a problem with dinosaurs and I don't have a problem with the bible. Because I don't see a need to take something which is so obviously intended to be read allegorically as a statment of literal fact. While I consider myself broadly christian in the basis of my belief (there - I avoided the f word just for you) it's probably more accurate to say that I believe in God rather more than I believe in those who claim to be His representatives on earth. But that's a different debate entirely...

SB

 

LOL. Nice turn of phrase.

 

Sorry, Olly, but we actually demanded that Iraq prove it didn't have WMD... Anyway that was a tongue in cheek aside.

I'd say that stating categorically that there is no God or gods is certainly a declaration of faith. Especially as one could look at the wonders of the world around us, discount the improbability of it all being coincidental and accept it as evidence of an intelligent creator...

I somehow doubt that we'll come to agree on this but for the record I respect your approach and am happy to carry on debating it with you until everyone else gets bored and goes off to the real world

Happy Easter.

SB

 

Hi Gary,

Well, you're part way there already - less than a page and we've moved you from atheist to agnostic

Seriously though, there wasn't any single road to Damascus moment that converted me. And in all honesty there are probably people here who would suggest I'm a pretty poor christian anyway. My belief, as I've said a couple of posts above here, in more in God than in the church. I guess it was a growing appreciation of what's around - the beauty and wonder of the world, the fabulous way that things combine to make it all work, the fact that by a quirk of chemistry we don't dissolve ourselves when we fart in the bath, the existence of bananas, that sort of thing - that made me struggle to deliberately deny the possibility that it might all be like this by design. Then I had a HUGE accident and had some time to read. So I read just about everything I could get my hands on, starting with the bible and then doing the Koran, the Torah, Mein Kampf, Karl Marx and I was part way through War and Peace (now *that* is boring!) when I left hospital. It struck me how similar creation theories are in different religions when you stop looking at them as anything other than allegories, and then I was able to come to terms both with my scientific education and my new found religious leanings.

If you stop looking at God as a dude with a beard sitting on a cloud, if you stop looking at Adam and Eve as people then suddenly things start to make more sense. If God is just a shapeless blob of energy then He could well have made us in His image - as single celled creatures. That way Eve would indeed have come from Adam, through cell division. And in fact pretty much everything would still fit...

Personally I suspect that heaven, if it exists, is populated by the spirits, life force, whatever you want to call it of those whose overall balance is positive. Let's look at positives as love, mercy, kindness, rather than credits racked up by going to church/mosque/synagogue/sacrificial altar. And the other place is full of those whose overall balance is negative - hate, fear, anger etc.

Some people will fail utterly to see my point, some will refuse to and some will probably accuse me of herecy. What the heck - you asked so I'll take the chance

SB

 

But Gary, the question was about the existence of God, not the rights or wrongs of religion. By definition, even if the proponents claim otherwise, a religion can only be a human interpretation of God's will. Initially, of course, we came up with organised religion as a way of imposing order on a species which had only come down from the trees a few generations earlier and were (are) naturally violent and somewhat sociopathic. As we got more sophisticated then so did our rules, and so did the religions behind them. Many societies were controlled entirely by their religious leaders, and often their teachings and their actions bore little resemblence either to the tenets on which they were founded or, I would suggest, to the will of God. Ever noticed how, for example, when countries go to war they always have God on their side? Even when both sides are ostensibly of the same religion?

Man made religion will always have stupid rules introduced for a good reason at some point and maintained because "that's how it is." It's got a lot to answer for, but the blame lies at our feet, not those of God...

SB

 

moses is a ten gallon hatful bigot.

 

There seems to be confusion about the definition of terms here.

Theism - a belief in god(s)
atheism - the lack of a belief in god(s)
gnostic - certain knowledge
agnostic - the belief that the it is impossible to know.

Many atheists are agnostic atheists, i.e. they believe that it is impossible to know that gos exists so don't believe in one. The gnostic atheists are few and far between (aprat from the poll on this thread it would seem), they are the ones that claim they know for certain there is no god. To me, at least, this in not a suportable position.

 

You're assuming SBradley takes the bible literally, many christians accept much of it is allegory.

 

It's possible to accept that killing is a bad thing without a belief in a deity.

None of which requires the following of a religion

That's more humanism than "tree hugger"

 

Which of course they couldn't do as you can't prove a negative! The US and UK made the claim, they sent the weapons inspectors in to try and prove their claim, they failed.

And yet I look at the real world and think how on earth could an intelligent deisgner have made such a total mess of things? Look at how border line so many things are. Why bother with Air and food if your deisgning something, seems to be an over complication to me, why not just "magic" it to exist and carry on living? Why do we need to be suseptible to disease? Why are we affected by natural disasters? Oh yes - god works in misterious ways. Sorry but that's just hand waving. Please explain why humans and other animals are so badly designed, why they "only just" manage to continue to survive. If it was all so perfect we wouldn't be seeing dozens of species becoming extinct every year.

 

there are 23 gullible morons on scoobynet

 

I can think of one genuine miracle Olly - the fact that you can write on the subject at this time of night !

Nite all,

A Heathen.

 

mark dude i dont believe in all of the bible personally but i believe their is the word of God inside it, but defiled and contaminated wae other words passed doon over the thousands of yrs ,laws last and people passing them doon and adding their own bits, it has been proven many a time that happened,. any new ruler or king or religious person adding mair stuff tae suit themselves and in the bible God condemns those who made up doctrines and said it woz fae God, see the bible is supposed tae be the word of God, but it aint just Gods words, its the prophets words, historians words, ruler kings words and hearsay and doctrines of men and history all rolled intae one and the world bible is not in the bible, the bible means biblos as in book in latin

we muslims believe it contains blasphemy in some parts against God and the prophets, prophet moses pbuh we believe is one of the greatest of messengers and a just and humble leader and he didnt commit holocausts and genocide against people at all as stated in the bible, its jews written it doon so they can dae whit they wanted as they did against other nations after prophet moses and God free'd them, it says prophet lot woz drunk and his daughters slept wae him day and nite tae conceive again not the word of God but satan and historians, then it says king david peace be upon him commited adultery wae bathsheba a wife of one of the greatest of mujahideen Gods soldiers in palestine who fought for justice and God and for king david in the battlefield, he gets his wife preggers and then realises whit he has done so he gets uria tae come tae his palace and gets him drunk and tells him tae go back home and stay wae his wife , the plan woz he would go and sleep their and then uria will think he got his wife preggers when in fact she is carrying king davids child, but he says how can i leave my force and relax and go home, while my men r fighting, he woz a true mujahideen, so the prophet of God david gets confused and he plots uria;s death so people will think the opposite forces killed him, that is blasphemy, in the quran those people r cursed by the tongue of david and jesus the son of mary who blasphemed against them and jesus mother and other prophets and God himself.

then kind davids son rapes his half sister and sleeps wae his stepmothers in front of israel, thats all bull and fabrications, nothing tae dae wae God but historians writing their history doon and according tae their feeble brains, they jotted doon and if u read the bible it always says it came tae pass and it came tae pass, thats a way of saying once upon a time, so u can tell its been passed doon by generations, then if u ask a rabbi or priest r all the 5 books by moses the torah that is, they will say yes, but why would it say in the torah the prophet moses pbuh woz 125 yrs old when he died, so it cant be prophet moses or joshua even and def cant be God who wrote that, isnt that true.


regarding jesus pbuh he treated his elders kindly and woz lovely and just, as i said in my other vaped posts, the gospels r 80 tae 150 yrs old after the prophet jesus pbuh, some say it wasnt even written doon by the disciples and one of them wasnt even a disciple and the other woz a student of the disciple and all those doctrines r made up by an evil jesus hating jew called st paul who woz in bed wae the romans and changed it tae suit them and stole the religion of mithra and added their idolatary ways

regarding the quote u said aboot jesus saying those who dont leave their families tae follow me and u misquoted and said worship me, he didnt say that mate, u r wrong their, but forgiven, he said those who dont leave their parents tae follow me, he didnt condemn them, he woz teaching them as in leaving their old wicked ways of their parents and old doctrines the rabbi's made up and changed the religion of God tae suit themselves, when he went tae the synagogue he got angry and hurt and ripped intae the monkey changers and stalls saying how can u make this holy house of God and worship intae a market place etc etc

he came tae show them the truth and mercy and teach them tae change their habits and leave their old ways and family as families will always stop u tae change the old ways tae the new, as he said the new wine will be giving in new skins, old skins cant handle new wine, he meant the message he brought

i hope u understand also in the quran thats where scientists stole the big bang theory , only book in the world is the quran aboot the big bang and God knows maybe they woz planets and thats how dinosaurs got them before it woz destroyed, i posted many a link before u can check them oot, if i dae it again they will get vaped also in the quran the earth wasnt made in 6 earthly days but periods and only God knows how long those periods were and he doesnt rest either in the 7th day we reject a God who rests


also i asked a question tae olly, do u know aboot the red rose in the universe somewhere,

 

olly my friend, God says their r signs on earth for those who understand


but some peoples hearts r sealed and r blind and dumb, but God says its cool let it be and they will find the truth at the end



i actually like it when people question things, its whits its all aboot, thats why islamic scholars did so much a few hundred yrs ago coz they didnt follow anything blindly and studied and became pioneers and also learned fae the greeks as well, its amazing


here olly this aint exactly scientific, its funny and how he explains some stuff
its called no brainer

No Brainer! Video

 

Thankyou for taking the time to explain. I can now appreciate your point of view, even if I ultimately don't agree with it.

 

Moses, without the use of cut'n'paste, can you expand on what you are saying about the dinosaurs here ? I can't follow it.

cheers,

Andy

 

nice post mate

u know the first racist woz satan, God exposed his arrogance when he created adam


he believed he woz something else didnt he lol its amazing us humans can get over oorselves and become like satan and arrogant



u know the angels said, oh lord why r u gonna make this human, they will cause bloodshed etc etc

God said i know which u dont know


if u look at the logic mate


angels r wae God , whit will they understand aboot a human being, Gods perfect creation even if we have oor own personal shortfalls coz of the free will he has given us, the ultimate freedom, we can dae any evil or bad things or we can dae good and be just and kind , its amazing


whit would an angel or satan understand when a human being withoot seeing God believes in his glory, his beautiful creation and colours and worships him and obeys the commandments tae practice a righteous life, im talking aboot true believers not my kind of sinners.


protecting fellow humans, giving yer life for someone else or being skint and having lil money and being patient in hardships and still having enuff heart tae share yer bread wae a fellow human and tae smile and feed others

struggling in life but still helping the poor, whit would the angels or satan understand'


when u see a wee kid gonna get knocked doon on the road , we humans will try tae risk oor lives and save the kid even if we die or lose a limb, or tae blow yerselves up tae kill a battallion of soldiers who oppress or persecute others

giving yer life for justice and whit would the angels understand of Gods beautiful creation. nothing at all

 

mate i gave u alot of books they can explain it properly coz i aint really a scientist and i know history and a bit of religion but science is my weak point


see theirs a verse in the quran near 1500 yrs ago i cant mind the full words it woz aboot all these galaxies been together and how he tore them assunder and etc etc and how in Gods days not human days he made the world and created the universe in 6 periods, not 24 hr days


so maybe their were other lands and thats where the dinosaurs were living and also aboot the barrier he created on the earth tae protect the world and the moon doesnt have its own lite but borrowed light etc and how God made everything in 2 pairs as we know now even the flowers and how the bee;s carry the stuff and electricity is male and female


those times people laughed at the prophet pbuh, coz people didnt have minds capable of understanding and the watercycle and clouds and how it evaporates etc, also how God can ressurect us by oor fingertips or even if we woz rocks now we understand fingerprint identification and how by the dna we can trace people


and how salt and fresh water dont mix, but have a barrier between and when he said only wae Gods permission can people penetrate the skies and people didnt understand that and now we know we can get their and how God made the earth oval shaped


if u watched a channel 4 documentry i will find it for u and pm u in a few days the oldest globe before the christian world even knew the world woz round , woz in the muslim lands and how they judged time and days

it woz amazing

that way the bible had the truth but over the yrs it got contaminated mate and people changed it or lost it

as we know the people burned jewish and hebrew history and destroyed their culture and history

maybe it woz in the original books

 

mate have a look at this guys profile and then at the bottom it says william campbell refuted him and william campbell got owned by dr zakir naik on tv


here

Maurice Bucaille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and here r the vids its a few parts

YouTube - Zakir Naik vs William Campbell-Quran and Bible (pt 1 0f 10)



if u need mair i will pm u, u just need tae ask

 

"so maybe their were other lands and thats where the dinosaurs were living "

I still can't follow it, even after such a meticulous and well-reasoned explanation. I tried, honest!




and this is just truly disturbing

"when u see a wee kid gonna get knocked doon on the road , we humans will try tae risk oor lives and save the kid even if we die or lose a limb, or tae blow yerselves up tae kill a battallion of soldiers who oppress or persecute others"