Flat 4x4

I reckon that Clinton Baptiste, famous psychic (pyskick) as featured on Phoenix Nights should remove any doubt that the paranormal is out there "I'm getting 'John' - is there a John in the audience?"

RRH

We see Derek and his wife in Asda most weeks.

Seems like a nice bloke.

I suspect he may be full of sh*t but I must admint I find it reasonably good entertainment. Most Haunted, that is, not Asda, as thats full of immigrants

OllyK

Abdabz

You are not far from the truth, there is no such thing as absolute proof, just a theory that has been tested many many times by lots of different people that always returns the same result (be that true or false) once we have an answer that is consistent over a number of repeatable tests it then becomes what is known as Scientific Fact. This is not an absolute by any means, it just says that we have sufficient confidence in the theory that we can make assumptions that it is correct and go on to formulate further theories on that basis.

So, what do we have - lots of people trying to proove that the paranormal exists. Lots of theories formulated that ghosts exists, that dowsing and homeopathy work etc etc. Tests are then formulated to validate those theories and on evry occasion to date, the test have failed to prove in a repeatable manner anything paranormal. On the few occasions the "paranormal" scientists (i.e. those who are convinced there is a a paranormal and are blinkered to possibility that there may not be one) seem to come up with a test that prooves there is paranormal existence, all the following tests performed by others show that the test prooves false.

Now if an experiment is performed 500 times to see if water will turn pink all on its own, and on 1 occasion it does and on the other 499 it does not, what conclusion would you draw. No doubt you would suspect ghosts of doing it, personally I would think it far more likely that that the one result where it did happen is more likely to be due to a poorly performed experiment, a dirty glass for example with some wine, or other red residue left in the bottom that turned the water pink.

I have proposed a reason why your 1 experiment may have generated a different result at at the moment it is 499:1 so we are pretty confident that water does not turn spontaneously pink. We would normally retest again to see if we can make the water go pink or if the vesseles used are still available we could analyse them.

Take now a paranormal experiment. Recently there was a young Russian girl who claimed that she could read even when blindfolded. At first a pretty impressive feat, although most of us can probably already guess how it was being done (i.e. a paranormal power or by trickery - even if you can't work out the specifics). A paranormal scientist carried out a series of experiments and everytime this girl could read with a blindfold on, wow, impressive stuff, it must be paranormal...

He then published his findings and other scientists looked at the experiments, video footage etc etc and suggested an alternative reason as to why this girl could do this. This girl had a rather oddly shaped bridge on her nose, this meant that the classic blindfold that was being used didn't fit her properly and so this left a small gap that she could see out of. The paranormal scientist poo-pooed this idea claiming it was just skeptics trying to rubish his work.

This girl then agreed to "do her stuff" for another scientist. He was aware of the suggested short fall in the orginal experiment and so he modified the blindfold so that a pair of smoked swimming goggles, wrapped in foil were used, and then he repeated the same experiments. Now what do you think the outcome was?? In short, she failed, not just once but every single time. So what we have is a badly designed test for the theory, once the test has been fixed the suspect results are no longer obtained.

The issue with the paranaormal is that so many people want to belive so it doesn't take much for them to accept things. People perform poor quality experiments and end up with results that suggest paranormal activity, they publish these results and those who want to belivejump with joy claiming that there is proof. The experiments are repeated and the flaws discovered and suddenly there is a very mundane explanation for the original event, this is well know within the scientific community, however the paranormal community are far less keen to circulate the information stating that the original experiment was flawed. The media shout loudly with the initial experiment and hardly raise a murmer when the "truth" is discovered.

Look at all the excitement there was with cold fusion, the guys making the claim made a big mistake in going public before peer review. The press picked up on it and wow suddenly the world's energy problems were solved. It was in the papers and on the news for days after. How much have you heard about it since the original report? Hardly a mention, and why? Because following peer review and re-testing the original experiment was shown to be flawed.

So what's my point with all of this?? Well just that I am so often accused of being closed minded for not beliveing in the paranormal, and in reality I am the one with the open mind, I don't just accept everything I am told and accept it, I am happy to wait for further information to perculate through and I am always ready to change my views and beliefs on the basis of new evidence. The paranormal belivers hear of the first experiment and that's it, we have the proof we need and will not review or change their position as new evidence makes itself known.

I am surprised that you don't still belive that the Earth is flat to be honest!! OK a flipant remark, but we all know that was a belief not that many years ago, and it took a long time for those who thought and could show otherwise to convince the others. Once a sufficently large body were convinced others came to accept that the new evidence superceeded the old. This is what needs to happen in the paranormal. Fine, see something you can't explain, put a label of Ghost or whatever paranaormal term you like on it, but provide the proof and see it through to the end not just stop after the first experiment and claim you are correct.

So on the basis of all this - no paranormal test has yet been shown to be true. The cases where the initial test showed true have been shown to be due to poor testing and once the errors have been corrected every re-test then goes on to show the result as false. So we have Paranormal 0 : Non-Paranaormal 1000's

As I say, not absolute, but based on the figures to date, I am still highly confident that there is no paranormal. Your confidence is based on what? The hope that one day the Paranormal may get its first "true". You choose to hold a belief that is completely contray to the weight of testing to date. Fine, not a problem, I can claim that cars will run on water one day, no eveidence to suggest that this is the, or will be the case, but its a nice idea and I can hang on to it if I want.

Boss Hogg

I'm getting the word.................nonce.

OllyK

Not sure who that comment is directed at, but suggesting that somebody has a sexual penchant for children is really rather sickening.

Boss Hogg

Olly - obviously not a fan of Phoenix nights then? Not heard of Clinton Baptiste?

OllyK

Sorry Boss Hogg - not seen it, "nonce" to me is another term for a Kiddy Fiddler

Boss Hogg

Without going into too much depth, Clinton Baptiste, aforementiond psychic (as someone posted before 'Is there a John in the room?) goes round offending and upsetting the audience. he then goes up to a large tough-looking guy (sat watching the show with his wife) and says:

'I'm getting the word.........Nonce'

It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen - but I guess you need to watch it.

Now the jokes expalined, on with the thread.

I love 'Most Haunted' by the way. Doesn't everyone know someone who knows someone whose seen a ghost, but no-ones every seen one themselves? Spooky eh?

OllyK

Ahhh - a dim bulb brightens!!

I knew of 1 person who believed they had seen the ghost of their mother. Unfortunately their mother was still alive at the time which kinda knackered that theory up a bit.

Mind you maybe ghosts are just copies of us running in a parallel universe and now and again the two universes brush against each other and and .... oh well its as crediable a theory as ghosts and hey guess what, I don't need any proof either because it is down the the scientists to proove I am wrong

Ted Maul

what about that lab in the US offering anyone who can prove this kind of thing a few million dollars. surprise surprise no one has yet. You'd think people who believe it and can make it happen would want to prove it....

OllyK

I think you are rferring to www.randi.org who offers $1 million for proof and any paranormal event.

As you correctly state - nobody has yet passed the preliminary tests never mind a full blown one and many many people have tried. The escuses for failure, and even better for not taking up the challenge are classic!!