Got to be Toyos. Get rid of the ZZ1's

 

Before I say anything else, I want to say that I REALLY appreciate the advice you guys are giving me.

There was only one point in the last post that didn't seem right to me. I have found that dipping the clutch in the FWD car does work, and I've been advised to use it in RWD cars in preference to lifting. The argument being that there is no jolt as you press the clutch, and the tyres can then concentrate all of their grip on the sideways forces, w/o worrying about the engine's attempts to break grip. Agreed that lifting the clutch w/o being careful can cause/worsen troubles.

Just one question that's rattling around in my head at the moment: The Avons seem to be standard fitment. Is that right? If so, why? Is it because the 4WD is hard on the tyres and the manufacturer is trying to give the driver longer tyre duration? How long do ZZ1s normally last compared to Toyo Proxes or Bridestone S02s?

Sorry for the questions, but I obviously need to learn.

Thanks.

 

Before I say anything else, I want to say that I REALLY appreciate the advice you guys are giving me.

There was only one point in the last post that didn't seem right to me. I have found that dipping the clutch in the FWD car does work, and I've been advised to use it in RWD cars in preference to lifting. The argument being that there is no jolt as you press the clutch, and the tyres can then concentrate all of their grip on the sideways forces, w/o worrying about the engine's attempts to break grip. Agreed that lifting the clutch w/o being careful can cause/worsen troubles.

Just one question that's rattling around in my head at the moment: The Avons seem to be standard fitment. Is that right? If so, why? Is it because the 4WD is hard on the tyres and the manufacturer is trying to give the driver longer tyre duration? How long do ZZ1s normally last compared to Toyo Proxes or Bridestone S02s?

Sorry for the questions, but I obviously need to learn.

Thanks.

 

Fury,

You're welcome

Dipping the clutch will indeed cancel the effect of lifting off, as the car is back to it's static balance (balance at stand still). so there's no severe weight transfer to the front that can affect grip at the rear. then in that sense, there's nothing wrong with dipping the clutch.

But then, what happens is that the car is TOO WELL balanced. How can you tell if it will understeer, or oversteer? a car that is not accelerating or braking can be very twitchy, as there's nothing to affect it's balance in one way or another. Not to mention the lack of ability to use engine power to get you out of the bad stuff.

If you worry about lift off oversteer in particular, inflate the rear tires with 3-4psi more than you currently have, that works wonders for most cars (but beware - an inflated tire, while providing better grip, can also break loose more abruptly), and just drive in an higher gear than you're used to, that would lessen the effect of engine braking. And of course, drive slower

Lift off oversteer isn't bad at all, once you learn how to use it to your own advantage.


[Edited by roee - 11/24/2002 3:46:55 PM]

 

I've had a read, some nice advice there, i've often found myself with either lots of over or under steer all of a sudden out of nowhere and its very scary if you dont know what you're doing (which I dont), and the only way to practice is where it wont hurt if you get it wrong. Gonna get me some training as soon as I can afford it before it costs me more than a pair of boxers!

 

You've had a whole raft of good advice here, from a lot of experienced guys. You don't actually say how hard you were caning it, but assuming a) you weren't being an idiot and b) you're used to driving fast, then it's a bit of a concern that you felt so comprehensively ambushed. Scoobies corner better than most - not 'cos of the AWD, but because of the lower centre of gravity (centre of mass??? one of the gurus'll put me right).

So, yes, go for the rubber and the technique first, but don't overlook other possibilities such as fuel starvation (opinions differ, but there's a respectable body of opinion in favour) - or even, possibly, something on the road surface.

Enjoy!

Phil

 

I *am* concerned, because I *really* wasn't caning it. I can't stress that enough. I wasn't booting it or braking. I think that I was gently accelerating, and it just went. This is how I've been caught out in my RWD car. I can see that if the driver does something to deliberately lose traction, like intentional lift off mid corner or even a flick of the steering wheel to throw the car into the corner (which I've done with my RWD car), then he is better prepared to deal with it AND the grip is there to be recovered quickly as it was only sillyness that broke the traction. However, when you *are* taking it smoothly, and the grip is lost, then it seems to be poop time. Especially, in my case, when I do my instinctive FWD thing and lift off!

I really feel that the car is losing grip far too easily. So, these ZZ1s must be *really* bad in the wet, rather than just average.

My other problem is that, for years now, I have driven at the edge of my car's grip. This is partly because for all of my driving life (14 years) I have driven the same old/shagged car with fairly low limits of grip in the wet. I just push until I find the limit and then back off. This works in FWD but seems to be f. dangerous in RWD or 4WD. Would you experienced 4WDrivers agree, or is it possible to drive the same way, after (e.g.) airfield/track experience? Maybe I'm a loonie, but I enjoy driving by being able to take the car to its limits and not have accidents.

Cheers.

 

well if you werent driving on any limit then I suggest you revisit the road in question and examine the surface for bumps, standing water and look over head for trees, if there was any leaves this would have pretty much been like ice!

I'm no mechanic but if the difs were ceasing up cos of loss of lubricant wouldnt you also have some strange moments when going round corners? just a guess, anyone?

 

i quite like my zz1s lol u can drift the car really easily with them on, cant say ive ever had problems on corners, perhaps the full coilovers and ride height have made up for ****e rubber. Spose i ought to look into new tyres 2

 

Myself and a few others on here are HGV drivers

Can i just say one word " DIESEL " ??!!??

Must be on every roundabout where I live !! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Deffo would not want to be a biker

 

Diesel is deffinately an option,it unbelievably slippery-ive come off my motorbike,and spun my old car(rwd and not caning it)because of it.Scooby 555 2-its good to see that HGV drivers actually admit to diesel spillage,it would also be good if people reported spillages to the local authorities-can save alot of heartache/lives.

easy

 

LISTEN!!!!!!


YOUR TYRES ARE ****!!!! YOUR TYRES ARE ****!!!!

I am not joking!!!!

GET SOME Toyos or Goodyears


Please Listen to me

 

Ok guys, I'll starting getting quotes for new tyres. :-)

So, Toyo Prox T1(?), Bridgestone S02, and Goodyear Eagle F1 have all been suggested. I've had good experience with Yoko A539s.

Any more/any preferences? Do they all perform about the same?

 

Recently completed the all round Toyo's proxy t1's on mine, had bridgestone so2's on the back, now they have worn in a little they are providing nice grip all round, cant wait for summer when roads are a bit hotter, tyres more sticky. Before they had bedded in though, it felt a little like driving with flat tyres on the rear, the rear of the car would kinda skid round, without even pushing it. They dont anymore. The bloke i bought my00 turbo from advised me he had the GEO set up for oversteer and if it did start coming round to power it a bit to get it to straighten up, i can say this has worked a few times, but was ready for it. Maybe yours could do with the Geometry being checked/setup correctly. Could have a big influence. !! :-) happy motoring.

 

A story:

a friend and i bought scoobs at roughly the same time.

he had goodyear f1's all round. i had bridgestone pontenzas that were on the limit of legal tread.

i jumped in his, he jumped in mine. we went up the road, which is a fast country, twisty road (no rain but damp surface from night before), that we both know very well.

he was behind me in my car and me in front in his - i overtook the car in front, going up hill with a slight off camber - no problem.

he performed the same manouvre and all i could see in the rearview mirror was him snaking up the road in my newly aqquired pride and joy. i went over a little crest and he was out of view. scary as i did not see him recover the slide which looked nigh on un-recoverable from my view, judging by the angle (i could see the entire side of my car!).

however i was relieved when a few hundred yards later he trundled up behind me, looking somewhat aneamic, as was i!

verdict: **** tyres = sphincter wincing, esp when 240bhp is applied through them! for all the mods that will make the car faster, brakes, suspension, exhausts, chips etc,

there is NO substitute for quality tyres!

weava

 

Thanks for the tip. The place that I go for tyres (Micheldever Tyre Services) also does laser alignment. I assume that any/all of these type of places knows how a standard Turbo should be set up(?)

 

micheldever are very competitive, and i am sure they wil have experiience with setting up scoobs.

go there today and feel the benefits of REAL tyres!

weava

 

There was a recommendation in an earlier posting to increase the tyre pressure on the back to increase grip. IME this would decrease grip(?)

 

I would like to add my 2 pence.
I've had ZZ1s on my scoob since I bought it and I haven't really had many complaints. Yes grip may be better with other tyres but until I wear these out I won't be finding out.
I can't afford to just change tyres at the drop of a hat, we must be talking about £500 of rubber here!!
I have had them loose grip but it's been very progressive and usually as a result of me trying to loose grip. They have never let go so easily as Fury Pilot describes, so I would look elsewhere for an explanation of why it went so easily.

 

It is not quite as bad as £500 for me anyway.

A set of 4 Toyo Proxies in 215/40/17 are coming in at £320

 

Mine are 205/50/16 - which I assume is standard - and should be cheaper still.

 

Fury Pilot,

Geometery should be checked out by a true specialist.

TSL in Keyworth near Nottingham are one of the best for this. Even with good tyres (Eagle F1) they transformed how the car handled by getting the wheels pointing in the same direction and correct camber.

Bridgestone have stopped production of the SO2 and brought out the SO3 which seems, to popular opinion, a bad thing.

 

Thanks.

Looks like it will be most sensible to get the geometry checked first, and think about tyres second.