kryten

I am currently trying to decide what to do about a brake upgrade for my RB5 WR. At Donington, I destroyed the standard discs and pads and so I got EBC Turbo Groove discs and EBC Greenstuff pads fitted at the track.

However, they are still not quite there in terms of performance. Initial bite is OK, but the feel isn’t wonderful and after prolonged use they definitely fade.

So, its decision time. I know this has been discussed a lot before and I’ve used search to find info – just wondered if those who have upgraded brakes could comment so I don’t make an expensive mistake.

The three options seem to be:

1) Prodrive/Alcon upgrade. 330mm discs (4 pot callipers) with Ferodo DS2000 pads. This is obviously the ‘easy, safe’ option: pop the car into the dealer and they fit it all, with no warranty problems in the future. Cost about £1500 + fitting.
2) AP Racing 4 pot kit. 304mm discs (what pads?). Cost about £1500 + fitting. Advantage of these is they will fit under 16 inch wheels which are cheap and apparently its easier to find 16 inch slicks.
3) AP Racing 6 pot kit. 330mm disc (what pads?). Cost about £1800 + fitting.


Do any of the kits come with braided hoses? If not, I assume that putting braided hoses on at the same time is a good idea?

If I go for the AP kit, is there anywhere along the M4 corridor that people would recommend to buy/fit them?

Are any of the kits heavier than the standard set up? If so, will this affect the handling due to increase in unsprung weight (I’m on standard RB5 suspension).

The rear brakes are standard (and I guess don’t really need upgrading) but the callipers are red – Do any of the brake caliper come in red, or would I need to paint them red to match?

Will I be able to run track days using the same pads as I use for day to day driving, or will I need to get some more ‘racing’ spec pads.

I assume that the real world difference between the three kits in their initial and subsequent braking ability will be small – thought I assume the two 330mm kits would have higher overall abilities?

If everything I’ve put above is correct and as price isn’t really a concern, I guess it really comes down to me deciding between:
Easy life/warranty (prodrive)
Option for slicks/spare track wheels (ap 4 pots)
Ultimate pit-lane pose (ap 6 pots)

Thanks for any help/advice you can give me as I currently can't make up my mind which to go for.

Charlie H

Do you have 4 pots fitted already? If so I would be interested in buying them off you as my 93 WRX really needs an upgrade

kryten

MY99 four pots will be for sale if I upgrade. Dunno how much they're worth though....

Rob D

Kryten,

I upgraded my standard 4 pots on my RB5 to the Prodrive/Alcon option.
This kit is simply awesome and if you do a few trackdays, big brake kits are worth their weight in gold
You shouldn't need any other pad for a trackday, DS2000's are fine.

The Alcon kit does not come with braided hoses as standard, but shouldn't be a problem for your dealer to fit some if you've supplied them, although one chap on here did have an issue with hoses.

The pads on the back calipers shouldn't need changing but it's up to you.
Red calipers did you paint them yourself? I think Brembo supply red calipers not to sure about anyone else

To be honest as you say the difference between the AP and Prodrive kits would be minimal, all are the dogs plums

The warranty and looks alone sold me the Alcons

Cheers,

Rob.

kryten

I bought the car last year. I'd assumed that it came with red calipers at standard (its a WRSport version).

I take it yours doesn't have red calipers then!

At the moment I can't see any reason to go with anything other than the Prodrive option...Just waiting for a price from my dealer.

T-uk

EBC greens are not meant for track use,before going for a full brake upgrade try some EBC reds or yellows.i used a set of reds at K/hill recently and they worked very well,but i am going to try yellows next,as 150 bed-in miles and 30 laps have left me with only about 3-4mm of pad material.remember that performance pads need heat to work so don't go daft into the first couple of corners.

john

kryten

I was intending putting in EBC red/yellow at the next track day. The last track day I did was on OEM brakes!

However, I'm looking to upgrade for both trackday and normal driving - I just don't have enough confidence in the EBC setup after pressing on for a while (eg through Snowdonia on the way to Anglesey)

Gary Foster

I run with Pagid RS4-2 Blue pads (just under £200 from ScoobySport). Have similar setup to you but pagid disks + braided hoses and Dot 5.1 - close enough to comment though.

With these pads they are good enough for track use, I can do a 15 min session with no fade (although the pedal goes spongy after lap 1, they still brake like buggers).

They have lasted 2 track days now and I'll get one more but possibly not 2 (3-4 track days), but there is basically zero disk wear.

To compare - std setup, got through brand new set of front rears in one day, brake fade after a couple of laps.

It might be worth trying the pads as a cheap upgrade before you spend thousands of pounds .. I might even be able to give you a set of nearly dead ones after my next track day.

But then if you can get away with just a low temp road pad like the DS2000 with the bigger brakes your running costs could potentially be lower (and I'm sure you could stay out longer / brake harder etc)

Gary

Charlie H

Kryten,I'll look through the old ads to see how much standard 4-pots are going for. I am definitly interested in buying the calipers,discs and pads off you if you do upgrade so keep me informed

kryten

Thanks Gary, how much were your Pagid disks?

Is there anyone along the M4 corridor who has got upgraded brakes that would like to give me a demo to make up my mind?

I don't really want to go spending more money on new disks, only to find they're not up to what I'm after.

I'm actually wondering if there's something not quite right with the EBC disks/pads I've got at the moment. They were making a strange grinding type of noise earlier today and there was definitely some vibration through the brake pedal. Anyone got any suggestions of what to look for (in simple terms for someone who has trouble figuring out anything mechanical on a car!)

Gary Foster

Disks are £188 + VAT from Scoobysport. Of course once you've added pads (RS42) at £164 + VAT it's not an insignificant upgrade (hoses + fluid ?).

Hoppy

Kryten, you seem to have got most of the options listed. Reading between the lines of your post, I think you're heading for one of the top end upgrades: anything less will not stand up to hard track use unless you can find a brake-friendly track like Snetterton. Donington is the hardest track in the UK on brakes. Unfortunately, it seems to be where most of the Subaru action is to be had! Your last comment about vibration with your EBC set up suggests that you've already warped those discs, so trying a different pad like DS2000s would get you nowhere, excellent though they are. It is well documented that Greenstuff is not up to track use, but reports of EBC red/yellow etc are mixed.

So, if you want the cheapest (?!) route, the APR 16in kit is the one. It comes with AP Japan ZX pads and braided hoses plus 5.1 fluid. I've been running this for a while and it can take everything that Donington can throw at it, including the Melbourne brake-sha99er Loop. It's so good I've just upgraded to APR 6-pots, if that makes sense!

But the main virtue of the 16in kit is that you can run 16in wheels, and slicks are easier to get in this size. In other words, cheaper. Downside is that choice of pads is limited (though the AP Japans are very good and wear well). You can fit other pads but as they wear they foul the bell unless you get them machined first. Not an impossible task and why the likes of ScoobyMania don't offer this service (about £25 a set extra) is something of a mystery.

If you want no-worries superb braking, the choice is 17in wheel APR 4-pots (no pad fouling problems with this size), or 6-pots. They come with Pagid RS421 pads. I've not had them on track yet, but they're stunning in fast road use.

Or the Prodrive/Alcon 17in kit, which is also top drawer. No question.

Which leaves you wanting 17in wheels and slicks. Wheels no problem, and slicks no problem either if you're buying new at £150 a corner. Part-worns are harder to find in the right size - anything bigger than 625mm diameter is liable to foul rear arches.

Hope this helps!

Richard

kryten

Thanks for the info.

Hoppy - can I just ask why you've upgraded to the AP 6 pots? Do you notice much improvement? Has the extra weight (I assume they are heavier) made any difference to the handling?

You're right that I'm heading towards a full upgrade (not just discs/pads) - don't really want to spend another 500 quid to find that its really not what I'm after - just got to finally convince my wife that I _need_ them and all is sorted

I doubt I'm likely to be getting a set of slicks as I'll probably only do a few track days a year, so its not really worth it.

I'm waiting for a price on the Prodrive/Alcon kit (anyone know how much margin the dealers have to play with?).

I guess either that or the AP will be very similar in normal usage - Powerstation aren't far away, so I guess APs from them is the other option.

Think I'll toss a coin: heads its Prodrive, tails its AP......

Hoppy

Kryten, my reasons for upgrading from APR 4-pots to 6-pots are not entirely logical, given that they'll do Dono for as long as you can hold on to the car. They are VERY good !

But the 6-pots are better, and well, I just wanted them. If there is any logic, it's like when you've uprated your engine from 250 to 300bhp, you then want 400, don't you ?

I've not tested them on track yet, but on the road the pedal pressure is less and I'm hoping there might be a bit more feedback. Having said that, some higher friction pads, like Performance Friction Carbon Metalics, might do the same for the 16in kit. Ask Stef, I know he's tried several different pads with his 16in APR set-up.

As for weight, I know the 16in APR kit is about 1.6 kilos lighter than the standard kit (alloy calipers and bells make a big difference). I'm guessing that the 6-pot outfit will be very close to the same weight as standard brakes.

Richard

kryten

Well, I've just ordered the Prodrive/Alcon upgrade along with the rear pads upgrade (I assume this is DS2000 pads - the dealer couldn't say) and will be getting it fitted just after easter.

A couple of questions though:

They are happy to fit braided hoses at the same time if I supply them - is this worth doing and if so, where's the best place to get a set from? (didn't see any in Scoobyshop, hint, hint!)

Any idea what brake fluid the 'subaru' stuff is? Is it worth getting some DOT5 or DOT5.1 for them to put in at the same time?

How much bedding in does the conversion need? Could I do it in a couple of hours?
The reason I'm asking is that there's an airfield day, the day after I'm having it fitted and I was thinking of going but I don't really want to trash the brakes by not giving them time to bed in properly first...

Thanks for everyone's help in making this decision.

russell hayward

Bedding in procedure :-

10-15 stops to near standstill from 60ish mph using light to moderate pedal pressure.

let the brakes cool by driving for a couple of mins not using them.

10-15 stops to near standstill from 70-80 mph using more pressure.

During/ after the second procedure they may smoke a lot.Do not be alarmed.

Then again drive for a few minutes to let them cool and that's it, job done.

Ta

Russ

Gary Foster

Kryten

Be interested in knowing how you find the Alcons once you've done a track day or two - any chance of a report back ?

(not that they are an option for me of course as you know from my other thread grrr... )

Ps anyone who reads this after a search, please ignore all my comments about Pagid disks, the track day following these comments saw them warp when hot. Pagid RS42s are still absolutely cracking though 5 track days now and still 7mm left in them.

Gary