Front rear balance with BIG brakes?
16 September 2002, 11:09 PM
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Finally shagged my 4 pots and need brakes and disks that can handle it.
If I put big rotors with 6 pot calipers on the front, does the front/rear brake bias need adjusting?
My logic is that I will be pushing less fluid into the system as the fronts will be biting so much better. This means the rears will not be biting as hard as they should due to less pedal pressure needed.
Is that logical?
Thanks
If I put big rotors with 6 pot calipers on the front, does the front/rear brake bias need adjusting?
My logic is that I will be pushing less fluid into the system as the fronts will be biting so much better. This means the rears will not be biting as hard as they should due to less pedal pressure needed.
Is that logical?
Thanks
16 September 2002, 11:16 PM
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Logical yes, but, in reality you need onlt upgrade the pads on the rear, the fronts do do most of the work anyway, the backs are only there to stop the car wanting to point the other way!!!!!!
18 September 2002, 09:06 AM
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Hi Diesel, I reckon I can give you some useful info as I did this last year.
I have a MY95 with as then standard everything.
I got Tarox 10 pot kit on the front (AP 6 pot equivalents), left the back standard size but slightly uprated quality.
When braking fairly hard the car snaked massively, to the extent of "fooken hell, **** me self"....I asked on here & was told to put better springs on.
I put Eibachs on & lowered 30mm & it made a huge difference instantly.
Then I got STI 6 suspension on & geom done...unbeleivable difference.
hope this helps
shunty
I have a MY95 with as then standard everything.
I got Tarox 10 pot kit on the front (AP 6 pot equivalents), left the back standard size but slightly uprated quality.
When braking fairly hard the car snaked massively, to the extent of "fooken hell, **** me self"....I asked on here & was told to put better springs on.
I put Eibachs on & lowered 30mm & it made a huge difference instantly.
Then I got STI 6 suspension on & geom done...unbeleivable difference.
hope this helps
shunty
18 September 2002, 11:29 AM
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wondered how long it would take for someone to comment
however I have got Tarox 10's, on a serious note have you done a comparison & what were your findings with the following:
actual stopping power, fade etc
quality of material used
quality of design etc
I would be interested on your comments as I don't know anyone else who has had this conversion & havn't been in a scoob with similar setup to me with AP 6 pots.
shunty
however I have got Tarox 10's, on a serious note have you done a comparison & what were your findings with the following:
actual stopping power, fade etc
quality of material used
quality of design etc
I would be interested on your comments as I don't know anyone else who has had this conversion & havn't been in a scoob with similar setup to me with AP 6 pots.
shunty
18 September 2002, 11:55 AM
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Yes, (kind of).
I had a set of Tarox on my early car, they were beter than the 2 pots and looked nice...... and that is all I can muster in their defence.
The pads were crap, they had no dust seals and eventually (after less than a year, needed completely stripping and new pistons fitting (sorry Scot).
They are paying lip service to performance, their ethos seems to by "Form over Function".
Even the mechanical argument for 10 pots is simply ludicrous and technically Miles wide of the mark.
(Sorry to Diss your brakes, but you asked).
In comparison, I ran my (Scooby Mania developed) APR 6 pots (2 drivers in shifts, myself and Simon DB) for THE WHOLE DAY, including the lunch break at the Children in need charity day last year at Donington.
No fade at any point, no judder, totally seamless performance, and stopping power so brutal (everytime) that you need to swallow to drop your lungs back into your chest cavity!
Come across some time, I'll show you what the AP's stop like.
Mike.
Scooby Mania
[Edited by Mike Tuckwood - 9/18/2002 3:24:05 PM]
I had a set of Tarox on my early car, they were beter than the 2 pots and looked nice...... and that is all I can muster in their defence.
The pads were crap, they had no dust seals and eventually (after less than a year, needed completely stripping and new pistons fitting (sorry Scot).
They are paying lip service to performance, their ethos seems to by "Form over Function".
Even the mechanical argument for 10 pots is simply ludicrous and technically Miles wide of the mark.
(Sorry to Diss your brakes, but you asked).
In comparison, I ran my (Scooby Mania developed) APR 6 pots (2 drivers in shifts, myself and Simon DB) for THE WHOLE DAY, including the lunch break at the Children in need charity day last year at Donington.
No fade at any point, no judder, totally seamless performance, and stopping power so brutal (everytime) that you need to swallow to drop your lungs back into your chest cavity!
Come across some time, I'll show you what the AP's stop like.
Mike.
Scooby Mania
[Edited by Mike Tuckwood - 9/18/2002 3:24:05 PM]
18 September 2002, 06:30 PM
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thanks for the reply Mike,
After having the setup on for well over a year now these are my findings:
the DS2500 pads that were supplied with the brakes were either manufactured wrong or the disc itself was. The problem was that although there was well over half (& I'm not joking here)the pad life left the edge (you can see how technical I am)caught on the disc itself on both sides & caused groves on the hub of the disc (if that makes sense)
squealing is bad, although I was expecting this as I was aware of no dust seals.
even though the calipers had been well greased the shims needed doing 3 months after brake pad renewal.
have now put DS 3000 pads on, which was probably an error on my part as I didn't realise they were too hard for road/fast road use, so therefore do take a while to warm up. I constantly have to keep a gentle dab on them when I am "going for it"
Also had to get TSL to machine the sides of the pad both sides to correct the rubbing issue.
I have never suffered from any fade whatsoever & find from 120-100 mph 10-20 times on a run they are fine, however I have never tracked.
Yes they do look good, which I only mention to give you a laugh.
To sum up, I actually ordered the 6 pot Tarox setup but they sent me the 10's by mistake, no extra charge & couldn't afford the AP setup at the time.
I would love to put them to the test against a scoob with AP 6 pots on. If anyone is prepared to meet me in West Yorks area to do this ?? Mike, you are down south arn't you, unfortunatly, otherwise I would take you up on your offer. ?
I will put up a post in the general section today regarding testing AP6's.
**edited to say that I have just realised that you are in Nottingham**
cheers
shunty
[Edited by shunty - 9/18/2002 6:31:43 PM]
After having the setup on for well over a year now these are my findings:
the DS2500 pads that were supplied with the brakes were either manufactured wrong or the disc itself was. The problem was that although there was well over half (& I'm not joking here)the pad life left the edge (you can see how technical I am
)caught on the disc itself on both sides & caused groves on the hub of the disc (if that makes sense)squealing is bad, although I was expecting this as I was aware of no dust seals.
even though the calipers had been well greased the shims needed doing 3 months after brake pad renewal.
have now put DS 3000 pads on, which was probably an error on my part as I didn't realise they were too hard for road/fast road use, so therefore do take a while to warm up. I constantly have to keep a gentle dab on them when I am "going for it"
Also had to get TSL to machine the sides of the pad both sides to correct the rubbing issue.
I have never suffered from any fade whatsoever & find from 120-100 mph 10-20 times on a run they are fine, however I have never tracked.
Yes they do look good, which I only mention to give you a laugh.
To sum up, I actually ordered the 6 pot Tarox setup but they sent me the 10's by mistake, no extra charge & couldn't afford the AP setup at the time.
I would love to put them to the test against a scoob with AP 6 pots on. If anyone is prepared to meet me in West Yorks area to do this ?? Mike, you are down south arn't you, unfortunatly, otherwise I would take you up on your offer. ?
I will put up a post in the general section today regarding testing AP6's.
**edited to say that I have just realised that you are in Nottingham**
cheers
shunty
[Edited by shunty - 9/18/2002 6:31:43 PM]
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25 September 2002, 03:07 PM
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Shunty
I'm with Mike on this as we rebuilt his seized callipers after he sold them to Scott. I should point out that they work working when he sold them
Over the following winter, they became less effective and Scott brought the car in for us to look at them. Over half of the pistons had rusted solid into the calliper and most of the other pistons were leaking or close to rusting in.
No matter what the cost saving, from my experience I would not recommend these to anyone who is after a big brake kit.
I'm with Mike on this as we rebuilt his seized callipers after he sold them to Scott. I should point out that they work working when he sold them
Over the following winter, they became less effective and Scott brought the car in for us to look at them. Over half of the pistons had rusted solid into the calliper and most of the other pistons were leaking or close to rusting in.
No matter what the cost saving, from my experience I would not recommend these to anyone who is after a big brake kit.
26 September 2002, 05:57 AM
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ok Pete, thanks for that & ps - remember, you have to send AP's back to the manufacturer for a rebuild if anything goes wrong & they also can seize-up as well my sources tell me...
I obviously agree with what your saying & as a percentage then AP's I would imagine have far less problems than the rest etc...BUT what initially started this off was the fact that Mike Tuckwood said that Tarox 10 pots were not in the same league as AP 6's. Now I had Kevin, ex Well Lane working on my car, he's used both & tells me there is no difference in stopping power, fade etc between these 2 set-ups......
Please remember though Pete, I am not questioning your years of experience in the motor world (or Mike's) & I appreciate that your technical knowlege far outwieghs mine, it's just that when someone tells me that my bit of kit is not in the same league (although these exact words were not used but implied
), then that's quite a bold statement & if it's true I will come back on here & admit that.
btw - what Tarox kit was this, the 10 pots like mine ?
and what are APR as opposed to AP ?
shunty (in somewhat sceptical mode this morning)
[Edited by shunty - 9/26/2002 6:33:40 AM]
& they also can seize-up as well my sources tell me...I obviously agree with what your saying & as a percentage then AP's I would imagine have far less problems than the rest etc...BUT what initially started this off was the fact that Mike Tuckwood said that Tarox 10 pots were not in the same league as AP 6's. Now I had Kevin, ex Well Lane working on my car, he's used both & tells me there is no difference in stopping power, fade etc between these 2 set-ups......
Please remember though Pete, I am not questioning your years of experience in the motor world (or Mike's) & I appreciate that your technical knowlege far outwieghs mine, it's just that when someone tells me that my bit of kit is not in the same league (although these exact words were not used but implied
), then that's quite a bold statement & if it's true I will come back on here & admit that.btw - what Tarox kit was this, the 10 pots like mine ?
and what are APR as opposed to AP ?
shunty (in somewhat sceptical mode this morning)
[Edited by shunty - 9/26/2002 6:33:40 AM]
26 September 2002, 08:41 AM
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Here is a data point I thought may be of interest to this forum:
Maintaining front to rear balance is one of the key benefits of StopTech's Big Brake Kits, and one of the key differentiators of the StopTech system. At this time we do not know of any other Big Brake Kit company that does an Application Specific Design. StopTech designs each application to work in harmony with the stock master cylinder and ABS. The result is that front to rear balance is maintained and the pedal is easier to modulate. Also, you do not need to upgrade the stock master brake cylinder.
StopTech takes the time to understand the stock environment and match piston sizes to ensure the correct amount of torque is applied. Too much torque interferes with ABS and can actually extend stopping distance. StopTech also had the shortest stopping distance in the Car and Driver article with ABS turned off. "When we disabled the ABS, we found the StopTech kit required the most effort to lock up the wheels. Some racers may like this feature because if an incident occurs in front of you a panic stop isn't likely to lock the wheels," says Car and Driver Sept, 2002.
Cheers,
Natasha, StopTech
Maintaining front to rear balance is one of the key benefits of StopTech's Big Brake Kits, and one of the key differentiators of the StopTech system. At this time we do not know of any other Big Brake Kit company that does an Application Specific Design. StopTech designs each application to work in harmony with the stock master cylinder and ABS. The result is that front to rear balance is maintained and the pedal is easier to modulate. Also, you do not need to upgrade the stock master brake cylinder.
StopTech takes the time to understand the stock environment and match piston sizes to ensure the correct amount of torque is applied. Too much torque interferes with ABS and can actually extend stopping distance. StopTech also had the shortest stopping distance in the Car and Driver article with ABS turned off. "When we disabled the ABS, we found the StopTech kit required the most effort to lock up the wheels. Some racers may like this feature because if an incident occurs in front of you a panic stop isn't likely to lock the wheels," says Car and Driver Sept, 2002.
Cheers,
Natasha, StopTech
26 September 2002, 01:36 PM
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Natasha those are £1700 for a pair of 4 pots, and I've never heard of you! How can that compete with cheaper, well known, AP six pots?
Thanks for the other comment though - are you implying that having a six pot front would reduce the standard effectiveness of the rears?
D
Edited to note that the price may be in Yankee dollars???? This could be £1000 and I have just read a review that places them ahead of the competition - even Brembo's at $3000...
[Edited by Diesel - 9/26/2002 2:04:16 PM]
Thanks for the other comment though - are you implying that having a six pot front would reduce the standard effectiveness of the rears?
D
Edited to note that the price may be in Yankee dollars???? This could be £1000 and I have just read a review that places them ahead of the competition - even Brembo's at $3000...
[Edited by Diesel - 9/26/2002 2:04:16 PM]
26 September 2002, 07:04 PM
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Hi Diesel,
Yes, the price you saw was in US Dollars. And yes, we are just about to enter the UK market, so we are not so well known in the UK yet. (except to those who know us from the US boards) Our Subaru kit is a fairly recent addition to our line, but has become quite popular in the States rather quickly because of the price and performance.
I was going to drop you an e-mail offline, but I haven't been able to get to my mail server all day. (sorry if anyone is waiting for a response from me)
We know that we need to win the trust of the local market, and we are eager to get the kits in the hands of a few folks over here and see what you have to say about them. So, we will soon offer an intro promo to offer some incentive. I'll hopefully be advertising the promo on this site soon, but let me know if you might be interested.
To respond to your question about AP... It's really only StopTech products that I know inside out and am in a position to set expectations on. In the spirit of fair play, I think it's better to let competitors explain what you can expect from their own products. (We like to keep things fairly fact based at StopTech)
At any rate, thanks for taking the time to look at the article and consider us. Feel free to contact me if you have more questions. (hopefully my e-mail will be working again soon!)
Natasha, StopTech
Yes, the price you saw was in US Dollars. And yes, we are just about to enter the UK market, so we are not so well known in the UK yet. (except to those who know us from the US boards) Our Subaru kit is a fairly recent addition to our line, but has become quite popular in the States rather quickly because of the price and performance.
I was going to drop you an e-mail offline, but I haven't been able to get to my mail server all day. (sorry if anyone is waiting for a response from me)
We know that we need to win the trust of the local market, and we are eager to get the kits in the hands of a few folks over here and see what you have to say about them. So, we will soon offer an intro promo to offer some incentive. I'll hopefully be advertising the promo on this site soon, but let me know if you might be interested.
To respond to your question about AP... It's really only StopTech products that I know inside out and am in a position to set expectations on. In the spirit of fair play, I think it's better to let competitors explain what you can expect from their own products. (We like to keep things fairly fact based at StopTech)
At any rate, thanks for taking the time to look at the article and consider us. Feel free to contact me if you have more questions. (hopefully my e-mail will be working again soon!)
Natasha, StopTech
26 September 2002, 08:37 PM
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Mike & Pete - you should take a leaf out of Natasha's book
Natasha, you do realise the UK market is based on lies, who_knows_who & lots of rumours...your company might not fit in if your culture is factual based & you don't slag other manufacturers off
shunty
Natasha, you do realise the UK market is based on lies, who_knows_who & lots of rumours...your company might not fit in if your culture is factual based & you don't slag other manufacturers off
shunty
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