ALK .... Help me make them !
13 August 2008, 07:22 PM
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ALK .... Help me make them !
What do I need to know ?
I have hardrace one's to base the shape on,but they are not anti lift.
What do I need to know to design my own brand? What can be done different to make them better?
any guru's please help
chris
I have hardrace one's to base the shape on,but they are not anti lift.
What do I need to know to design my own brand? What can be done different to make them better?
any guru's please help
chris
13 August 2008, 08:02 PM
#2
Hi Chris,
The Whiteline one seems to be the most well regarded.
Here is a link with some pics next to the oem part.
https://www.scoobynet.com/suspension...ml#post7378068
The Whiteline one seems to be the most well regarded.
Here is a link with some pics next to the oem part.
https://www.scoobynet.com/suspension...ml#post7378068
13 August 2008, 08:12 PM
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Hi Chris,
The Whiteline one seems to be the most well regarded.
Here is a link with some pics next to the oem part.
https://www.scoobynet.com/suspension...ml#post7378068
The Whiteline one seems to be the most well regarded.
Here is a link with some pics next to the oem part.
https://www.scoobynet.com/suspension...ml#post7378068
Cheers
Can whiteline be improved in anyway??
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13 August 2008, 08:22 PM
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or if your not interested in them i'm sure we can sort something else out
13 August 2008, 08:26 PM
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Yep ,... wouldn't be looking to make a direct copy - just something to base the designs on as the hardrace stuff doesn't add the castor and I need to see how it works . If I planned to copy them I wouldn't be posting on a public forum - but I know what your saying....
just think we can offer these at much better price's + want a set on mine
and before anyone says it... because I know they will , I understand whiteline are the pro's in this stuff and have been making them for years - I'm just interested in seeing what we can do .. plus it gives me a new project
Last edited by CDF Racing; 13 August 2008 at 08:53 PM.
13 August 2008, 10:38 PM
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I maybe way out here ..... but does anyone think it is poss to make them adjustable ... so you can adjust them to suit between .5 and 2 deg??
I have heard perrin use spacers to make them 2 deg
I have heard perrin use spacers to make them 2 deg
14 August 2008, 07:12 AM
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Whiteline WALK copy
G'day everyone,
We'd also like to know how we could improve our design and would really like to get any feedback. It’s one thing to work out an idea and design a product around but being so close to it, we're mindful of the fact that it could always be better.
scoobynewbie72, the "thicker spacer" wouldn't really work with caster because we’ve added pretty much all we can before it allows the control arm to start fouling the body. Also, it's important to think about static vs dynamic caster which is more important and that has been designed into the whole mount and bush interaction. However, the main “spacing” outcome from the WALK is mainly the actual Anti-Lift Kit part and that is designed to remove the factory anti geometry without creating other problems.
CDF Racing, to help explain above, we have an explanatory white paper on our web site at http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles...WL%20ALK_b.pdf that was put together by our engineers to help better understand the geometry and how it works. This should “Help you make them”.
maydew, to our knowledge, the other brand uses a spherical bearing and the grease nipple is provided for that. All 3 of our Comfort, Street and Motorsport versions use a polyurethane bush design to provide NVH isolation and some compliance. However, the Motorsport design uses a much harder and revised bush design to better locate the arm under extreme loads. Our tests have shown that this delivers most of the positives of a solid bearing without the negatives.
Hope that helps and we look forward to some more feedback.
Cheers
Whiteline Jim
jim@whiteline.com.au
Whiteline Flatout
We'd also like to know how we could improve our design and would really like to get any feedback. It’s one thing to work out an idea and design a product around but being so close to it, we're mindful of the fact that it could always be better.
scoobynewbie72, the "thicker spacer" wouldn't really work with caster because we’ve added pretty much all we can before it allows the control arm to start fouling the body. Also, it's important to think about static vs dynamic caster which is more important and that has been designed into the whole mount and bush interaction. However, the main “spacing” outcome from the WALK is mainly the actual Anti-Lift Kit part and that is designed to remove the factory anti geometry without creating other problems.
CDF Racing, to help explain above, we have an explanatory white paper on our web site at http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles...WL%20ALK_b.pdf that was put together by our engineers to help better understand the geometry and how it works. This should “Help you make them”.
maydew, to our knowledge, the other brand uses a spherical bearing and the grease nipple is provided for that. All 3 of our Comfort, Street and Motorsport versions use a polyurethane bush design to provide NVH isolation and some compliance. However, the Motorsport design uses a much harder and revised bush design to better locate the arm under extreme loads. Our tests have shown that this delivers most of the positives of a solid bearing without the negatives.
Hope that helps and we look forward to some more feedback.
Cheers
Whiteline Jim
jim@whiteline.com.au
Whiteline Flatout
14 August 2008, 07:18 AM
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Hi Chris,
Both the road and race versions of the Whiteline ALK add 0.5 degrees the only difference is the harder black bush on the race kit.
I believe the Whiteline stuff for Imprezas was designed by an ex F1 suspension guru who goes by the name of Job Gevers, what he don't know about suspension ain't worth knowing !!! I would imagine if Whiteline do not add more than 0.5 degree of castor it is for a reason ????
The one thing you could consider making though is sets of sealed ARB saddle clamps that totally encase the bush etc and therefore will stop the age old problem of the whiteline ARB's squeaking after the grease has dried out. I believe Perrin already do these for their ARB kits, just a thought,
Ralph
Milsport
Both the road and race versions of the Whiteline ALK add 0.5 degrees the only difference is the harder black bush on the race kit.
I believe the Whiteline stuff for Imprezas was designed by an ex F1 suspension guru who goes by the name of Job Gevers, what he don't know about suspension ain't worth knowing !!! I would imagine if Whiteline do not add more than 0.5 degree of castor it is for a reason ????
The one thing you could consider making though is sets of sealed ARB saddle clamps that totally encase the bush etc and therefore will stop the age old problem of the whiteline ARB's squeaking after the grease has dried out. I believe Perrin already do these for their ARB kits, just a thought,
Ralph
Milsport
Last edited by ralphandcarol; 14 August 2008 at 07:20 AM. Reason: correction
14 August 2008, 07:22 AM
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Ah, while I was busy typing and posting up my reply Jim posted his.
Come on Jim what about sealed saddle clamps ?
Ralph
Come on Jim what about sealed saddle clamps ?
Ralph
Last edited by ralphandcarol; 14 August 2008 at 07:25 AM.
14 August 2008, 01:20 PM
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Hi Chris,
Both the road and race versions of the Whiteline ALK add 0.5 degrees the only difference is the harder black bush on the race kit.
I believe the Whiteline stuff for Imprezas was designed by an ex F1 suspension guru who goes by the name of Job Gevers, what he don't know about suspension ain't worth knowing !!! I would imagine if Whiteline do not add more than 0.5 degree of castor it is for a reason ????
The one thing you could consider making though is sets of sealed ARB saddle clamps that totally encase the bush etc and therefore will stop the age old problem of the whiteline ARB's squeaking after the grease has dried out. I believe Perrin already do these for their ARB kits, just a thought,
Ralph
Milsport
Both the road and race versions of the Whiteline ALK add 0.5 degrees the only difference is the harder black bush on the race kit.
I believe the Whiteline stuff for Imprezas was designed by an ex F1 suspension guru who goes by the name of Job Gevers, what he don't know about suspension ain't worth knowing !!! I would imagine if Whiteline do not add more than 0.5 degree of castor it is for a reason ????
The one thing you could consider making though is sets of sealed ARB saddle clamps that totally encase the bush etc and therefore will stop the age old problem of the whiteline ARB's squeaking after the grease has dried out. I believe Perrin already do these for their ARB kits, just a thought,
Ralph
Milsport
Hi Ralph,
Although I work for Whiteline's parent company, Redranger and I am a suspension engineer, I was not the one that designed the ALK. It was in fact the Whiteline engineering team under the lead of Jim Gurieff. This team is a great bunch of guys, who really try to design good value for money parts that make a proper, real life difference. The Whiteline ALK, Whiteline Roll Centre Adjustment kit, Whiteline MaxC, Whiteline solid droplinks etc. are proof that the team at Whiteline are normally the first to put innovative ideas into practice.
The ALK itself works very well both in adding static castor as well as reducing castor loss under load that is a big problem with the standard bushing. The anti-lift function, that changes the anti-geometry and therefore reducing the stiction/friction in the front suspension, does a great job in allowing the other front suspension components to do their job better.
Obviously, the design parameters are very important for the WALK to work correctly and a few millimeters out means a greatly reduced effect and sometimes adverse effects.
I have had a close look at some of the copies available and found that most copying manufacturers have changed some measurements within the ALK (probably to avoid IP infringment) and therefore have reduced the effectiveness.
In my opinion, most copied products are very rarely as good as the original :-)
By the way, how is your Whitelinized RA going?
Cheers,
Job
14 August 2008, 05:03 PM
#22
G'day everyone,
We'd also like to know how we could improve our design and would really like to get any feedback. It’s one thing to work out an idea and design a product around but being so close to it, we're mindful of the fact that it could always be better.
scoobynewbie72, the "thicker spacer" wouldn't really work with caster because we’ve added pretty much all we can before it allows the control arm to start fouling the body. Also, it's important to think about static vs dynamic caster which is more important and that has been designed into the whole mount and bush interaction. However, the main “spacing” outcome from the WALK is mainly the actual Anti-Lift Kit part and that is designed to remove the factory anti geometry without creating other problems.
CDF Racing, to help explain above, we have an explanatory white paper on our web site at http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles...WL%20ALK_b.pdf that was put together by our engineers to help better understand the geometry and how it works. This should “Help you make them”.
maydew, to our knowledge, the other brand uses a spherical bearing and the grease nipple is provided for that. All 3 of our Comfort, Street and Motorsport versions use a polyurethane bush design to provide NVH isolation and some compliance. However, the Motorsport design uses a much harder and revised bush design to better locate the arm under extreme loads. Our tests have shown that this delivers most of the positives of a solid bearing without the negatives.
Hope that helps and we look forward to some more feedback.
Cheers
Whiteline Jim
jim@whiteline.com.au
Whiteline Flatout
We'd also like to know how we could improve our design and would really like to get any feedback. It’s one thing to work out an idea and design a product around but being so close to it, we're mindful of the fact that it could always be better.
scoobynewbie72, the "thicker spacer" wouldn't really work with caster because we’ve added pretty much all we can before it allows the control arm to start fouling the body. Also, it's important to think about static vs dynamic caster which is more important and that has been designed into the whole mount and bush interaction. However, the main “spacing” outcome from the WALK is mainly the actual Anti-Lift Kit part and that is designed to remove the factory anti geometry without creating other problems.
CDF Racing, to help explain above, we have an explanatory white paper on our web site at http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles...WL%20ALK_b.pdf that was put together by our engineers to help better understand the geometry and how it works. This should “Help you make them”.
maydew, to our knowledge, the other brand uses a spherical bearing and the grease nipple is provided for that. All 3 of our Comfort, Street and Motorsport versions use a polyurethane bush design to provide NVH isolation and some compliance. However, the Motorsport design uses a much harder and revised bush design to better locate the arm under extreme loads. Our tests have shown that this delivers most of the positives of a solid bearing without the negatives.
Hope that helps and we look forward to some more feedback.
Cheers
Whiteline Jim
jim@whiteline.com.au
Whiteline Flatout
14 August 2008, 08:07 PM
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From looking at the piccies of the whitline ones they just appear to move the pivot approx 15-20mm down, compared to std.
14 August 2008, 09:30 PM
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Just an idea, would it not be cost effective just to make a couple of square washers to obtain the required offset. That way using longer bolts you could reuse the original rear mounts on the front wishbone.
From looking at the piccies of the whitline ones they just appear to move the pivot approx 15-20mm down, compared to std.
From looking at the piccies of the whitline ones they just appear to move the pivot approx 15-20mm down, compared to std.
15 August 2008, 06:07 PM
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Hi Ralph,
Although I work for Whiteline's parent company, Redranger and I am a suspension engineer, I was not the one that designed the ALK. It was in fact the Whiteline engineering team under the lead of Jim Gurieff. This team is a great bunch of guys, who really try to design good value for money parts that make a proper, real life difference. The Whiteline ALK, Whiteline Roll Centre Adjustment kit, Whiteline MaxC, Whiteline solid droplinks etc. are proof that the team at Whiteline are normally the first to put innovative ideas into practice.
The ALK itself works very well both in adding static castor as well as reducing castor loss under load that is a big problem with the standard bushing. The anti-lift function, that changes the anti-geometry and therefore reducing the stiction/friction in the front suspension, does a great job in allowing the other front suspension components to do their job better.
Obviously, the design parameters are very important for the WALK to work correctly and a few millimeters out means a greatly reduced effect and sometimes adverse effects.
I have had a close look at some of the copies available and found that most copying manufacturers have changed some measurements within the ALK (probably to avoid IP infringment) and therefore have reduced the effectiveness.
In my opinion, most copied products are very rarely as good as the original :-)
By the way, how is your Whitelinized RA going?
Cheers,
Job
Although I work for Whiteline's parent company, Redranger and I am a suspension engineer, I was not the one that designed the ALK. It was in fact the Whiteline engineering team under the lead of Jim Gurieff. This team is a great bunch of guys, who really try to design good value for money parts that make a proper, real life difference. The Whiteline ALK, Whiteline Roll Centre Adjustment kit, Whiteline MaxC, Whiteline solid droplinks etc. are proof that the team at Whiteline are normally the first to put innovative ideas into practice.
The ALK itself works very well both in adding static castor as well as reducing castor loss under load that is a big problem with the standard bushing. The anti-lift function, that changes the anti-geometry and therefore reducing the stiction/friction in the front suspension, does a great job in allowing the other front suspension components to do their job better.
Obviously, the design parameters are very important for the WALK to work correctly and a few millimeters out means a greatly reduced effect and sometimes adverse effects.
I have had a close look at some of the copies available and found that most copying manufacturers have changed some measurements within the ALK (probably to avoid IP infringment) and therefore have reduced the effectiveness.
In my opinion, most copied products are very rarely as good as the original :-)
By the way, how is your Whitelinized RA going?
Cheers,
Job
Hi Job, (and sorry for the highjack),
Sorry about the misunderstanding, I seriously thought you had a hand in most of Whitelines products.
It is going great, like a different animal. I am now thinking of getting an even more extreme geometry set up ie: closer to Graeme's.
Do you think it is possible for sort of "sealed" ARB mounting brackets to be made to stop them drying out and squeaking/creaking ??? If you do have a word in their ear for me/us that suffer the same problem, re-greasing the bushes every couple of months is a real PITA.
Ralph
Last edited by ralphandcarol; 15 August 2008 at 06:10 PM.
17 August 2008, 11:05 AM
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For info the Forester bushes are to the same 'pro-lift' level as the Whiteline 'ALK' setup, but without adding the extra castor, that would achieved by moving the bush laterally 'outwards' (not downwards so spacers wouldn't work - you can achieve the smae effect if you have alloy lower arms by spacing the pin (bolt on) that goes though this bush from the rest of the arm) so could be achieved in the same way as say adjustable top mounts.
Simon
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