Turbo2

Record debts, top stars leaving without replacement, deteriorating Champions League form. Is it all over? Have our big clubs now been overtaken by those from other countries and the fear of facing English opposition in Europe has vanished, or is it just a "blip" and normal service will soon be resumed? The next 7 days will decide.

Here's some evidence of our clubs' CL performance over recent years. You've got to go right back to 2003 - 2004 for anything like this season's results.

2009 - 2010 (so far): 2 clubs in Quarter Finals (one currently losing)
2008 - 2009: 4 in QF; 3 in SF, 1 in Final
2007 - 2008: 4 in QF; 3 in SF, 2 in Final
2006 - 2007: 3 in QF; 3 in SF, 1 in Final
2005 - 2006: 1 in QF; 1 in SF, 1 in Final
2004 - 2005: 2 in QF; 2 in SF, 1 in Final
2003 - 2004: 2 in QF; 1 in SF

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

The sooner it implodes, the better for FOOTBALL in this country

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Evidence of what? That football isn't an exact science? It's arrogant and very shortsighted to expect English teams to consistently take all of the top spots in Europe.

Turbo2

"Evidence" that our top clubs appear to no longer be as good as they used to be in relation to other nations. England had a period of dominance from 1975 - 1984 with 9 finalists and 7 victories in just 11 years. More recently we have now had 6 finalists and 2 victories in the last 5 years and were pretty much invincible for a couple of years until the end of last season. Those are the facts.

I've got absolutely no idea what the second part of your reply is about.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Your stats are not evidence of anything IMO. Having 4 teams in the last 2 quarters of the CL doesn't mean that anything less is a failure It certainly doesn't indicate some kind of deterioration in English form and fall of the Premier League Some you win, some you lose.

Nothings changed. Other European leagues have their big clubs with big players just like they always did, they're all equally 'feared' in European competition, they all have their day. That's the beauty of football.

Quoting 30 year old stats is a little odd, but goes to show how much other leagues have improved.

Which team do you support?

Turbo2

There's only one way of measuring performance of our top clubs against the best of Europe and that is in the CL. The Premier League teams were unbeatable a couple of years ago. Do you remember the 2007 - 2008 season when NO foreign team knocked out any of the 4 English teams? That season included knock-out ties against Lyon, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Roma & Barcelona, so most of the European heavyweights and the English teams prevailed on every occasion. That sort of domination strikes fear into any other big club in Europe. It wasn't a case of "Some you win, some you lose" because we won them all.

This season that is no longer the case. We have already lost Liverpool at the Group stage and Chelsea in the 1st K-O round. How can that be anything other than a deterioration, when compared to the record of recent years?

Perhaps we're quickly forgetting just how good our clubs were back then? We're still a force to be reckoned with of course, but no longer invincible.

As for your last point I'd rather not say after last weekend's results, in case any Chelsea fans read this.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

I've been a Liverpool fan since the 70's, so I know all about the ups and downs of European football English teams have never been invincible, my point is that nobody is. Yes, 07-08 was a good year for our countrys football, an exception, but in no way represents a benchmark that all other seasons should be compared with. We never won them all . . . without going so far back it's irrelevant to the modern game.

This year, Liverpool are a club in turmoil and Chelsea . . . well, their European record speaks for itself It's history that strikes that fear of which you speak more than form.

We have 2 of our top clubs still in the Champions League QF's and in with a good shout, not forgetting 2 still in the Europa League quarters. Business as usual as far as I'm concerned.

Villa fans

pauld37

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

Football is unpredictable, one slip, a last minute goal or even a bad call from a ref changes a game in an instant and no matter how good a team is they NEVER always win. The 07-08 season saw all teams playing at their peak in europe and maybe even other teams not playing well. A 30 yard strike was the difference between United and Barca in 2008.

Aaron

PS well explained DJ Dunk

Turbo2

After the events of the last couple of days you'd have to be truly deluded to still believe that the top Premier League teams are as strong now as they used to be just a couple of years ago in comparison with the rest of Europe. The CL semis now include teams from Spain, Italy, Germany and France. Our clubs are no longer dining at the top table. At best our top 4 clubs have stood still on player investment (Chelsea), and the rest have gone backwards (Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal) during the last year or two. That's given the other big clubs in Europe the chance they needed to invest and overtake us. Michel Platini must be rubbing his hands with glee this morning.

I've updated the OP list of English teams in the CL.

2009 - 2010: 2 in QF
2008 - 2009: 4 in QF; 3 in SF, 1 in Final
2007 - 2008: 4 in QF; 3 in SF, 2 in Final
2006 - 2007: 3 in QF; 3 in SF, 1 in Final
2005 - 2006: 1 in QF; 1 in SF, 1 in Final
2004 - 2005: 2 in QF; 2 in SF, 1 in Final
2003 - 2004: 2 in QF; 1 in SF

So it's the worst performance by English clubs since 2002 - 2003.

Still I guess we can all go back to the age-old Mantra of claiming that we have "the most exciting League in the world"

If we want to regain our position as the number one League in Europe and the attraction that has to lucrative TV audiences around the world, the chairmen at our top clubs are going to have to get out their dusty old chequebooks this summer and do some record-breaking spending.

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

The EPL is by far the most exciting league, just because there are no teams left in the CL doesn't mean it's not

By those assumptions, Serie A is more exciting or Ligue 1 where Lyon won it 7 years in a row up until last season.

If english teams were suddenly banned from europe would that make the EPL boring? It's an insult to 16 other teams in the EPL to even suggest that. Excitement isn't measured by the 'big fours' performance in europe

Aaron

97TURBO

The EPL isn't all its made out to be, there is a definite power shift on the go. Although La Liga has never really left the top spot as the written press would love to have us believe.
The French League is in for a far more exciting finish than any other League in Europe and doesn't get the credit it deserves.

As was pointed out today on Talk Sport, the English clubs at the top only really have one match winner/Game changer in their team (Fabregas/Drogba/Rooney), when the other big guns in Europe have 3 (even those who never progressed beyond the last 16 stage)

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

Barcelona are the only team better than United,Chelsea and Arsenal. As for match winners, define one? As i'm pretty sure across europe there is likely to be only one from most teams that get all the attention, what about Cole Essien Malouda Anelka or Valencia Nani Giggs or Nasri Rosicky RVP? Granted our teams have had to deal with lots of injurys this season and maybe that's why we've seen such a lack of consistancy. These players help win games most weeks within the PL and in Europe too. These teams with a few that didn't progress beyond the last 16, they're not very good match winners are they

Aaron

Turbo2

How can you say that when Bayern Munich knock out Man Utd and Inter Milan knock out Chelsea? It just doesn't make any sense!

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

Just because a team beats another doesn't always mean they are better maybe better in the game but not a better team, surely that makes sense to you although judging by some of your logic then probably not. Leeds United knocked Man U out the FA cup this season, Bayern went through on away goals and but for a sending off may not have (not to say they wouldn't have scored anyway). Knockout competition is like that, come next season Man U and Chelsea will be favourites ahead of Bayern and Inter would you not agree?

Aaron

97TURBO

Interesting point there. So you would also agree then that a because "match winner" doesn't do it in one round of one competition, he shouldn't be written off from said title. I mean even the likes of Messi will have a game that even he could not rescue.
As for Man U and Chelsea being favoured over Bayern and Inter next season, no they wont if the teams/coaches were as they are now.
Bayern always had a chance against United as they had 3 match winners to Uniteds 1.

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

Yes i would agree, your point was that the teams that got further didn't have as many match winners as some of the teams that had gone out earlier. I pointed numerous match winners in teams you suggested had only one, when there are other match winners other than 'the' star player from each team

But which players scored the goals for united that won the match? They are called match winners, people that can 'win' you the game. Rooney contributed very little other than a layoff and a cross field ball. Match winners aren't always the ones that get all the glory or the headlines, Van Dar Sar has been a match winner for us lots of times this season but of course only the United fans or proper football fans wil reconise that

Bayern squeezed past a team 20+ points off the top of Serie A in the last round, we hammered a team 3 points off the top of the same league! What does that tell you? something or nothing, Depends which way you look at it. If all teams and managers were the same next season then they would still be favourites (United and Chelsea) Players have seriously underperformed from the english teams this year, along with injurys that effect the whole team sometimes.

I've a feeling you won't see my point, but this time next year we can discuss again.

Aaron

Moley

iTrader: (9)

The Premier Leauge can't be that bad.... we have 2 mid table teams in the semi finals of the Europa Cup

97TURBO

Proper fans and Man united fans in the same sentence
The type of player im talking about is the guy(s) you look at before the game even kicks off and think yeah he could win this game for us when the chips are down.

Another point over the English teams that went out in the knockout stages is, how many of their players would get in the opposition team.

Arsenal dont have anyone that would get in the Barca team, not even Fabregas.
Man United would only have Rooney, Ferdinand and Vidic in the Bayern team.
Inter would maybe take Drogba and Terry.

All round the EPL teams are not superior by any stretch of the imagination

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

You live in a dream world, or know nothing or both. Evra , and Fletcher would walk into the Bayern team, VDS is the better of the two GK. Hargreaves and Anderson were very important for United in winning the trophy in 08. M Owen has scored important goals for us this season and we missed someone ike that, he was even top scorer for us in europe before he got injured. Injurys and cosistancy have cost english teams this season in europe but more in the EPL which nearly everyone in football in this country has admitted has been one of the strangest seasons in years.

What about A. Cole, Essien Cech Lampard? they are better than Inters And for the record Fabregas would get in the Barca team which is why they're willing to spend £30m+ to put him there If Diaby had chosen the correct ball to almost certainly put Arsenal 2-0 up things might have gone different (might not have too) but hey football is won and lost on the smallest of margins sometmes. Look at United going out marginly on away goals after playing almost half a match with 10 men.

Explain why United fans and proper fans in the same sentence is funny nothing to do with this argument is it? but because your losing it little jibes that show your knowledge for what it is.

Anyway this is the last time i'll post in this thread as your either a wind up or get your info from the back of the star.

Aaron

97TURBO

What you are forgetting is that football is about opinions and that is where you have gone off the radar my friend.
Im equally as baffled by you're own choice of player, especially the Chelsea boys. Christ, most of their own fans no longer rate cech I'd take Sniejder over Lampard all day long.

Turbo2

Irrespective of what you think of our European competitors, does anyone really think, hand on heart, that the quality of football in the Premier League has been as high this season as previously?

I don't.

The top teams have tailed off and pretty much let the others catch up. That's fine for excitement down to the wire, but not actually a sign of improved football quality. Just look at the top 8 teams and how many matches they have lost with one game remaining:

Chelsea: lost 6 (last season 5)
Man U: lost 7 (last season 4)
Arsenal: lost 9 (last season 6)
Spurs: lost 9 (last season 15)
Man C: lost 7 (last season 18)
AV: lost 7 (last season 10)
Liverpool: lost 11 (last season 2)
Everton: lost 9 (last season 9)

I think Spurs breaking into the Top 4, may set the alarm bells ringing at the likes of the Emirates, Anfield et al, when considering the long term financing of their own clubs via Champions League funding. At this rate anyone could be up there next year.