GavinE

Been looking into this after a couple of friends just had some internals done, results are supposed to be very very impressive, and alot cheaper than forging. It increases metal durabillity three fold, and apparently anything can be done including bearings etc, priced on the size of the parts and ammount of Liquid Nitrogen needed.
Basically it works by aligning the molecular strucutre of the metal.
I've been told that it's cheap as there is no way of gauging it yet, and its quite a new tecnology so know one really understands it 100% yet.


Only couple of people in the UK can do it, but supposed to be big in the US and racing.


May be worth a look if anybody looking to strengthen thier engine internals

rob2006

iTrader: (1)

This process isnt new, infact i was introduced to it at leat 6 years ago if not more. This process does not make parts invincible, if it goes wrong... believe me you wont have anything left.

bmfcrash

iTrader: (14)

I would put yourself in, with the understanding that you will be defrosted when the process and results are understood and can be measured/monitored .
Never know Snake oil might be worth a punt by then

GavinE

It's proven, its a process used alot in NASCAR, BTCC and various other classes of racing for over ten years let alone use in varouis other products such as audio equipment for 40+ years.

There is no way to accuratly measure the strength increase yet!

look for yourself, smart ****!

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scousefly

thread be locked this guys raised it 3 fugging times on the same page with the same wording in each one surely this is spamming

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Engineering science has yet to come up with a way to measure the strength of a mechanical component...?!

Please, tell me that all the hi-fi snake oil and b*llocks hasn't made the leap to engine tuning as well... is freezing my stereo supposed to make it sound better, have more power or do a better job of supporting the stuff piled on top of it without collapsing?

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

My missus read about cryogenics and said that when she dies, she wants to be frozen - I thought she already was!

JohnD

bmfcrash

iTrader: (14)

Aluminium with its high surface residual stress responds incredibly well to the process becoming very dimensionally stable, and standing up to the most demanding machining.


Sounds great to me, put in an already fully machined component, then put it through a stress relieving operation. That will make for a more accurate part once the components distort.

We make parts for aerospace through to all motorsports including F1, now some of these parts are made from the most elabarate materials knows to man.

Some very special heat treatments and age hardening process are carried out, some of which are not even available in this counrty then surface treatment like shot peening and C.A.S.E (chemically assisted surface enhancment).

Freezing is used during conventional heat treatment to reduce the amount of retained austenite after oil quenching, a cryogenic treatment is used to complete the martensite transformation.

Then components can be finished machined eg grinding, hard turning, hard milling, spline/gear grinding and any surface treatment as above.

Yet there are companies that claim a 5% power increase if you treat your engine (18bhp max increace) Motorsports Cryogenic processing, Cryogenic Tempering, Deep Cryogenic Treatment .

As for not being able to test it, Micro hardness testers, heat treatment structure surveys,micro case depth surveys would show up a change in the material.

Go get your 5% power increase, Just dont come on here crying to us for help when it all goes a bollock.

Im not a smart ****, just a realist. You would get a much better return in both power and reliability putting in a can or 2 of snake oil !!!

GavinE

Sounds like you really know your stuff, so why not just post something more sensible the first time rather than all the rubbish.

As a consumer, like many others i do not have the experience and in depth knowledge of this or any other metal treatments and as most have to believe the 'bumpf' that the companies speal off, or speak to others that have had it done.


At what point in my first post did i say this was the best thing since sliced bread, and that everyone should do it? I simply pointed out that it may be worth looking into.


scousefly:

I am not spamming! i only posted this once but for some reason it started 3 threads the same. Perhaps if the site admin done there jobs then these would have been removed.


All:
I have been a member on here for about 2 weeks, several times i've been insulted, and TBH out of every body that has replied to any thread that i have started maybe a handful have been useful.

Funny this, how the ones with all the sarky comments seem not to be full members of SN
So much for being a friendly forum?
I apologise to anybody that has been more than helpful, and constructive with reply's, but like they say it is the minority that ruin it.

Perhaps i'll re-evaluate whether i bother to post, look at or even take part in anything SN related in the future.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Please, don't take personal offense - it's just that if you make unlikely-sounding claims in front of intelligent people you must expect to be asked to justify them!

For example,

...really doesn't add up, because measuring the strength of metal components is something every first year mechanical engineering student knows how to do.

It wouldn't be a big deal for a company to take two identical pistons or bearings, treat one of them, then have them both tested to destruction in an engineering lab. A significant improvement would be an invaluable marketing tool, while failure to show any improvement is something they might just want to keep quiet.

So: are there controlled experiments published showing that cryogenic treatment makes engine parts stronger or not? And if not, why?

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

I'm a little surprised at the content of some of the replies. This was, in my opinion, a perfectly legitimate and relevant post? (My previous post was childish humour - she's not really that bad!)
As an ex - engineer who understood the changes in crystalline structure by way of heat treatment, I can well believe that by subjecting metallic componants to extreme low temps. can also have permanent and measurable effect. If you could maintain extreme low temps. in certain componants of your Hi-Fi, it would work better - electrical resistance reduces as temps. fall. Theoretically to zero at zero Kelvin, where all molecular activity ceases, that's schoolboy physics. As bmfcrash has explained, one would look at the treatment as a durability and stabilisation process and not as a direct way to more power.

JohnD

GavinE

I'm looking into doing this to increase strength of the components so i can introduce more power to them, not power as a direct result of the treatment itself. Basically a cheaper alternative to Forged intrenals.


Is rockwell hardness a measurement?? They state an increase from 61HRC to 63HRC.
Is that it?

'Sample a. is a standard blade made from High Speed tool steel. Sample b. is the same blade only it has been cryo treated by Frozen Solid. Tests on the these samples were carried out by an independent lab. These were the labs finding's:Sample b. has a more complete martensite transformation than sample a. Sample b. has gained a further increase in Rockwell hardness, from 61 HRC to 63 HRC.'

I'm way out of my league here, maybe somebody could have a look at the site and have a read because to me it all seems to make sense (that is as and individual that knows nothing, it all looks very impresive)
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JohhD:
In reference to my previous post, i was not only refering to this thread nor was i directly pointing the finger at anybody. On another occasion some decided it was the perfect opertunity to make sexual Gestures about my partner (a jokes a joke but some people taking it to far). A little humor is not the problem but IMO somebody trying basically point out that i am an idiot compared to some is offensive.

Lets just forget about it.

bmfcrash

iTrader: (14)

While an increase in HRC from 61 to 63 could be benificial in certain cases, it will also create a more brittle component.

Gear hardness in an ideal world is 58-62 HRC with a residual core strength of 400-450 Hardness Vickers (material dependent). Parts that are working against each other should be of a similar hardness to reduce premature wear or faliure due to fatigue to the 'softer part' even 4 HRC could create noticable problems.

Bearing manufactures for example spend millions of pounds developing proceses for the manufacture of their parts, Just measured a roller bearing myself and found it to be 61HRC, these are by nature designed to work under a specific load for a number of cycles and altering the 'surface' hardness may cause premature failiure.

An ideal case hardened material would have a tempered martensite surface with no carbide or retained austinsite and a bainite core. During HT these are targets that are aimed and tested for using nital etching of a test piece.

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

As I said, I thought your post was perfectly relevant by seeking opinions on the subject and any attempt to actually belittle you by superior knowledge, is out of order.
Don't be put off by an occasional reply that seems to sting a bit - we've all been there!

JohnD

GavinE

If anybody is interested, put a few questions to the guy at frozen solid, things that had been raised in this thread and heres the reply::



Hi Gavin

Every day we come across people such as the one in this forum who are sceptical of the cryogenic treatment process. First off, we have been in business for more than ten years, if there were no benefit to our treatment I would venture to say we would have been gone (out of business) some time ago. Our list of customer’s range from the father and son karting teams right up to the big boys in Formula 1. We have supplied our technology and made treatment chambers for component makers that supply Formula 1 and World Rally Car. We continue to work closely with universities such as Newcastle where we have demonstrated that we can increase: fatigue resistance, impact strength, and abrasive wear resistance in materials such as S155/156 between
25 and 32%. These materials are commonly used in components such as helicopter gearsets and camshafts in F1 engines.

One thing I would point out, Deep Cryogenic Treatment (DCT) is not a hardening process, it is a toughening process. DCT is not something new; it has been around for decades. Reference manuals such as the Machinery’s Guide Handbook from as far back as the 60's discuss techniques using DCT, or Sub Zero Treatment as they called it back then, for treating materials to improve the quality of the component. What we at Frozen Solid are doing is not something new and we are certainly not the firsts ones in Europe to use Deep Cryogenic Treatment, what we are is the first company in Europe to offer the service to every day consumers such as your self.

Gavin, please feel free to give me a call next week and I can explain the process in more detail and answer any questions you may have.


Best Regards
Greg Bartlett