UL or SUL and why
19 November 2000, 08:40 PM
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I picked up my Scoob about 7 weeks ago and so far "lot's of fun had by all" but now I'm a bit concerned.
I've read Tony Burns thread about waving and flashing etc and I read this "i hope its super or else say good bye to that engine!!"
Now, when I collected the car I specifically asked if I should run the car on UL or SUL? I was told that UL would be OK; I thought I'd just be losing a bit of performance so I've been running on UL.
What’s gonna happen if I continue to run on UL and should I go and give the dealer a kicking?
Mike
I've read Tony Burns thread about waving and flashing etc and I read this "i hope its super or else say good bye to that engine!!"
Now, when I collected the car I specifically asked if I should run the car on UL or SUL? I was told that UL would be OK; I thought I'd just be losing a bit of performance so I've been running on UL.
What’s gonna happen if I continue to run on UL and should I go and give the dealer a kicking?
Mike
19 November 2000, 08:56 PM
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RB,
UK cars are fine on NUL, some people find running on SUL has a slight increase in performance and usualy a lot smoother lower down the rev range. Some even report an increase on mpg but not noticed this myself.
It may be cheaper to run on NUL and use Millers Octane booster. This will depend on the price of SUL and Millers in your area.
Lee
UK cars are fine on NUL, some people find running on SUL has a slight increase in performance and usualy a lot smoother lower down the rev range. Some even report an increase on mpg but not noticed this myself.
It may be cheaper to run on NUL and use Millers Octane booster. This will depend on the price of SUL and Millers in your area.
Lee
19 November 2000, 08:57 PM
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Cheers Ian, Major medical condition avoided, I might go and give the dealer a kicking anyway. 
[This message has been edited by RB170 (edited 20 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by RB170 (edited 20 November 2000).]
20 November 2000, 12:47 AM
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Hi RB,
run my uk my00 on super, loves it and i get 340 - 360 out of a tank
It also feels very smooth too but had to put ul in her during the fuel crisis, good job ive got some millers octane booster stashed away
run my uk my00 on super, loves it and i get 340 - 360 out of a tank
It also feels very smooth too but had to put ul in her during the fuel crisis, good job ive got some millers octane booster stashed away
20 November 2000, 02:18 PM
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Oh god, not this debate again
For the record. the black beast runs on NUL. Why? cos it's cheaper, and until recently a garage stocking SUL was not too near. Also I was told that it should be ok running on NUL as it ain't STi which I know *must* be run on SUL.
Finally. When looking at a graph on dynoscoobies (I think) there was WRX Wagon which was running unmodified on the dyno and the guy was running it on NUL with no problems.
BTW - can someone say what *mechanincal* differences there are between a UK spec engine and Jap spec engine for a MY94 car.
Why? well, I *know* that jap fuel is 100 RON, and we've only got 97 RON, but I'd like to know what if any under the bonnet differences there are that means that jap spec cannot run on 95 RON.
As the beast is a MY94 Wagon, I'm told it's only 220ps (215 bhp?) thus equal to uk spec engine (?) and thus as it's uk spec it should run on 95 ok.
(Flamesuit on, standing by exit door, black beast outside with engine running)
For the record. the black beast runs on NUL. Why? cos it's cheaper, and until recently a garage stocking SUL was not too near. Also I was told that it should be ok running on NUL as it ain't STi which I know *must* be run on SUL.
Finally. When looking at a graph on dynoscoobies (I think) there was WRX Wagon which was running unmodified on the dyno and the guy was running it on NUL with no problems.
BTW - can someone say what *mechanincal* differences there are between a UK spec engine and Jap spec engine for a MY94 car.
Why? well, I *know* that jap fuel is 100 RON, and we've only got 97 RON, but I'd like to know what if any under the bonnet differences there are that means that jap spec cannot run on 95 RON.
As the beast is a MY94 Wagon, I'm told it's only 220ps (215 bhp?) thus equal to uk spec engine (?) and thus as it's uk spec it should run on 95 ok.
(Flamesuit on, standing by exit door, black beast outside with engine running)
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20 November 2000, 09:48 PM
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Gentle run out on Sunday with the wife as passanger (best speed restriction device known to modern engineering 
).
Hence managed 240 miles from this tank, usually nearer 200.
360 miles? must be all down hill
Lee
).Hence managed 240 miles from this tank, usually nearer 200.
360 miles? must be all down hill
Lee
20 November 2000, 09:54 PM
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Markus, I have a 93WRX, and believe it's ok to run on 95Ron, apparently the timing is immediately adjusted to cater for the 95Ron (to avoid damage), and if you then start putting 97ron in, it'll soon re-adjust the timing back ti optimum and you'll get that extra responsiveness and power that goes along with SUL.
Apparently the jap cars have bigger turbos and their engines are generally stronger to cope - don't quote me that's just what I read somewhere.
I agree it's the STi's which HAVE to run on SUL rather than normal WRX's, mainly because the ECU isn't capable of retarding the timing enough for 95RON so the timing isn't right and the pistons melt!
I do run mine on SUL though cos it generally sounds sweeter and it goes better Having said that I haven't done an ECU re-set with 95RON in to force it to properly set the timing from scratch.
Yeh the fact that the 94wagon is same bhp doesn't mean it's same spec engine precisely as UK car surely? I mean the figures you read about jap cars are using 100ron anyway, so 220ps in japan is more like 205 or whatever over here on 95ron.
cheers,
Alex
Apparently the jap cars have bigger turbos and their engines are generally stronger to cope - don't quote me that's just what I read somewhere.
I agree it's the STi's which HAVE to run on SUL rather than normal WRX's, mainly because the ECU isn't capable of retarding the timing enough for 95RON so the timing isn't right and the pistons melt!
I do run mine on SUL though cos it generally sounds sweeter and it goes better
Having said that I haven't done an ECU re-set with 95RON in to force it to properly set the timing from scratch.Yeh the fact that the 94wagon is same bhp doesn't mean it's same spec engine precisely as UK car surely? I mean the figures you read about jap cars are using 100ron anyway, so 220ps in japan is more like 205 or whatever over here on 95ron.
cheers,
Alex
20 November 2000, 10:13 PM
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Spence,
Info on Turbo's posted by Pat in drivetrain section. The TD05H was indeed a big turbo but takes a lot of spooling up hence max torque at 4800rpm. Loads of info if you do a search in drivetrain. Not to sure if a WRX can retard enough for 95 Ron though
As for what turbos were fitted to what, as far as I know all cars pre-1997 were fitted with the TD05H turbo, whether import or UK. In 1997 things get interesting The UK cars get the TD04L, which they have retained to this day, and the Japanese ones go crazy
The STi 3 was fitted with an IHI turbo, I think it's either a VF23 or a VF24. The WRX of that era would've been the same. The version 4 STi came with a VF24 turbo; some of the WRX cars of the same age came with a VF22. Starting with STi V the cars were fitted with the VF28 turbo, and the 22B was fitted with a VF23. The MY00 carried the same turbos across, but the MY01 seems to be using a VF29. UK cars are a bit of an unknown at the mo, possibly still TD04L but maybe they too have gone for IHI rather than MHI turbos.
Lee
Info on Turbo's posted by Pat in drivetrain section. The TD05H was indeed a big turbo but takes a lot of spooling up hence max torque at 4800rpm. Loads of info if you do a search in drivetrain. Not to sure if a WRX can retard enough for 95 Ron though
As for what turbos were fitted to what, as far as I know all cars pre-1997 were fitted with the TD05H turbo, whether import or UK. In 1997 things get interesting
The UK cars get the TD04L, which they have retained to this day, and the Japanese ones go crazy The STi 3 was fitted with an IHI turbo, I think it's either a VF23 or a VF24. The WRX of that era would've been the same. The version 4 STi came with a VF24 turbo; some of the WRX cars of the same age came with a VF22. Starting with STi V the cars were fitted with the VF28 turbo, and the 22B was fitted with a VF23. The MY00 carried the same turbos across, but the MY01 seems to be using a VF29. UK cars are a bit of an unknown at the mo, possibly still TD04L but maybe they too have gone for IHI rather than MHI turbos.
Lee
20 November 2000, 10:41 PM
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Lee,
I think you might be right about the WRX not being able to retard enough - on me turbo boost gauge, it goes to 0.8bar with SUL in (after ECU re-set), and when I was running it on 95Ron beforehand it also peaked at 0.8bar. Not sure if same boost setting means timing is the same also, hence it didn't/couldn't adjust timing (and I didn't do an ECU re-set with 95ron in), but potentially you might be right which is a bit worrying! It's not easy finding SUL everywhere!!
I've read somewhere that 0.2 bar is all it will allow if you use 91ron fuel...so maybe it can retard the timing? May not have been a WRX though eh? Dunno!
I just hope it can retard enough, and that the odd fill up with 95ron is ok once in a while.
cheers,
Spence
cheers,
Spence
I think you might be right about the WRX not being able to retard enough - on me turbo boost gauge, it goes to 0.8bar with SUL in (after ECU re-set), and when I was running it on 95Ron beforehand it also peaked at 0.8bar. Not sure if same boost setting means timing is the same also, hence it didn't/couldn't adjust timing (and I didn't do an ECU re-set with 95ron in), but potentially you might be right which is a bit worrying! It's not easy finding SUL everywhere!!
I've read somewhere that 0.2 bar is all it will allow if you use 91ron fuel...so maybe it can retard the timing? May not have been a WRX though eh? Dunno!
I just hope it can retard enough, and that the odd fill up with 95ron is ok once in a while.
cheers,
Spence
cheers,
Spence
20 November 2000, 10:46 PM
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Spence,
Have you got a local Millers agent. One bottle treats 50 litrs of fuel. Will increase NUL 95 ron upto 97 Ron same as SUL.
If you buy in bulk should work out at less than £3 a bottle which is equal to less than 6p a litre increase. SUL in my area is 7-10p a litre dearer so its cheaper to use Millers.
Lee
Have you got a local Millers agent. One bottle treats 50 litrs of fuel. Will increase NUL 95 ron upto 97 Ron same as SUL.
If you buy in bulk should work out at less than £3 a bottle which is equal to less than 6p a litre increase. SUL in my area is 7-10p a litre dearer so its cheaper to use Millers.
Lee
21 November 2000, 10:17 AM
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I run an STi 3, and was categorically told by my dealer that it was OK to run it on NUL.
They said that the engines in STi 4 cars and onwards were the ones which have had big end failures through not running SUL, something to do with a change in the engine internals.
(I imagine a big end failure changes the engine internals somewhat)
If I know I'm going for a blast or trackday, then I'll use SUL + Millers and reset the ECU to bring the car and juice as close to Jap spec 100ron as possible.
I'm keen to here other STi owners views though.
dela
They said that the engines in STi 4 cars and onwards were the ones which have had big end failures through not running SUL, something to do with a change in the engine internals.
(I imagine a big end failure changes the engine internals somewhat)
If I know I'm going for a blast or trackday, then I'll use SUL + Millers and reset the ECU to bring the car and juice as close to Jap spec 100ron as possible.
I'm keen to here other STi owners views though.
dela
21 November 2000, 02:24 PM
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RB180, This, is, or was until a month ago, one of the reasons for me not using SUL.
Not sure about a track day on NUL, might use SUL, just to be safe.
Not sure about a track day on NUL, might use SUL, just to be safe.
21 November 2000, 07:13 PM
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Hi RB170,
I'm sure the elf garage in flamstead end sells super, Bp garage bullsmoor lane also
It would be worth trying super as i always run mine on it and it is alot smoother especially if your RB5 has PPP.
Rob
[This message has been edited by Rob W (edited 21 November 2000).]
I'm sure the elf garage in flamstead end sells super, Bp garage bullsmoor lane also
It would be worth trying super as i always run mine on it and it is alot smoother especially if your RB5 has PPP.
Rob
[This message has been edited by Rob W (edited 21 November 2000).]
22 November 2000, 12:30 AM
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Hi Rob
No I checked both of them last night and unless they're hiding it at the back somewhere they don't have it. I have found one that does and thats the Total garage opposite Burger King just off the A10 and filled up SUL last night, I do have PPP and I hope it's going to make a difference cause a tank full is BLOODY EXPENSIVE!!!
Mike
No I checked both of them last night and unless they're hiding it at the back somewhere they don't have it. I have found one that does and thats the Total garage opposite Burger King just off the A10 and filled up SUL last night, I do have PPP and I hope it's going to make a difference cause a tank full is BLOODY EXPENSIVE!!!
Mike
22 November 2000, 01:16 PM
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RB170,
I know the Esso garage on the A10 just before the halfway house towards Enfield sells it. It also wouldn't surprise me if the BP just after Church Lane on the A10 sells it too.
I know quite a few garages sell SUL in Harlow and Bishops Stortford as I us it for my P1.
Good luck......
I know the Esso garage on the A10 just before the halfway house towards Enfield sells it. It also wouldn't surprise me if the BP just after Church Lane on the A10 sells it too.
I know quite a few garages sell SUL in Harlow and Bishops Stortford as I us it for my P1.
Good luck......
22 November 2000, 11:23 PM
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AMAZING
You all own subaru's and have them coz they r real quick cars .
Begs the question:
Why not use SUL and get a bit more power out of the car? If you cant afford SUL then u shouldn't be in the sube in he first place.
Every one has already attested to the fact that octane booster additives work so then upping from 95RON to 97 or 98 RON must be a good thing and worth the extra bucks..
And besides...we are only talking about a few hundred quid extra per year..
Chip it, new exhaust, black box etc...and then use the ****ty low octane stuff...
you gotstabe mad!!!!
You all own subaru's and have them coz they r real quick cars .
Begs the question:
Why not use SUL and get a bit more power out of the car? If you cant afford SUL then u shouldn't be in the sube in he first place.
Every one has already attested to the fact that octane booster additives work so then upping from 95RON to 97 or 98 RON must be a good thing and worth the extra bucks..
And besides...we are only talking about a few hundred quid extra per year..
Chip it, new exhaust, black box etc...and then use the ****ty low octane stuff...
you gotstabe mad!!!!
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