What are my rights?
09 November 2000, 09:11 AM
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Otis
How long have you hade the car and how many times have they attempted to repair it and do you have it in writing that as far as they're concerened the engine knock is a characteristic????
How long have you hade the car and how many times have they attempted to repair it and do you have it in writing that as far as they're concerened the engine knock is a characteristic????
09 November 2000, 09:18 AM
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Don't know what your rights are - contact Trading Standards and Citizens Advice Bureau. Also, consider getting an inspection performed by an independent mechanical engineer and then confront Subaru with the report, threatening court action if they do not offer to correct the problem.
ChrisW.
ChrisW.
09 November 2000, 09:59 AM
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RB170,
Thanks for replying. Answers are as follows:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Car purchased new on 13th November 1999.
<LI>They have been trying to cure the problem since <B>29th June 2000</B>. They have now had it in bits <B>3 times</B>.
<LI>No, they have not put anything in writing. What would I do with it if I did get something in writing?
</UL>
I have told them that I would not accept the '<I>they all do it</I>' line and informed them of the overwhelming support I was getting on the BBS with my original thread. As a result they have backed off on that one for now and said they would look at things again if the rebuild was not successful, which it wasn't.
The thing is I don't know what to do next. I do not want them to take the engine out again as that is becoming a joke. So it's a case of a)'what <I>should</I> I do?' and b) 'what <I>could</I> I do?'
Otis.
Thanks for replying. Answers are as follows:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Car purchased new on 13th November 1999.
<LI>They have been trying to cure the problem since <B>29th June 2000</B>. They have now had it in bits <B>3 times</B>.
<LI>No, they have not put anything in writing. What would I do with it if I did get something in writing?
</UL>
I have told them that I would not accept the '<I>they all do it</I>' line and informed them of the overwhelming support I was getting on the BBS with my original thread. As a result they have backed off on that one for now and said they would look at things again if the rebuild was not successful, which it wasn't.
The thing is I don't know what to do next. I do not want them to take the engine out again as that is becoming a joke. So it's a case of a)'what <I>should</I> I do?' and b) 'what <I>could</I> I do?'
Otis.
09 November 2000, 10:16 AM
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Otis
If you really feel that the car is not right (and I haven't read the previous message past the second page) consider telling your dealer that you will enlist autoexpress' help in getting a resolution to your problem.
If memory serves they have a section each week that features drivers having disputes with dealers/manufacturers.
Decide what you want (you might already have an idea) and explain to the dealer if you remain disatisfied then you will approach the magazine.
This would not be good publicity for a company (IM) that takes so much trouble to point out the JD Power results.
Before you do contact the mag tho' is it worth contacting IM direct and explaining you are unhappy with the car/dealer response?
Forgive me if I'm rehashing anything or talking rubbish.
Jason
If you really feel that the car is not right (and I haven't read the previous message past the second page) consider telling your dealer that you will enlist autoexpress' help in getting a resolution to your problem.
If memory serves they have a section each week that features drivers having disputes with dealers/manufacturers.
Decide what you want (you might already have an idea) and explain to the dealer if you remain disatisfied then you will approach the magazine.
This would not be good publicity for a company (IM) that takes so much trouble to point out the JD Power results.
Before you do contact the mag tho' is it worth contacting IM direct and explaining you are unhappy with the car/dealer response?
Forgive me if I'm rehashing anything or talking rubbish.
Jason
09 November 2000, 10:23 AM
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Otis
The first thing I would do is contact Subaru UK and explain the entire situation, remember that dealers are franchised and even though they don't like to admit it they do like to keep manufacturers happy. When it comes down to it the car you bought was produced by SUBARU and not the dealer.
I can't see them replacing the car no matter what but I would push for a brand new engine, the only problem being that you have accepted a repair, which means that they don't have to replace it. I'll check your exact rights tonight.
Have you tried a different dealer? You’ll be amazed what an experienced mechanic knows; it could be a problem that your specific dealer has never encountered before.
Drop some names; tell the dealer that you've been discussing it with the guys on the Scoobynet BBS.
If you can get a written statement from them which states that they think that the problem is actually a feature then you can present this to SUK and ask them what they intend to do about it.
The first thing I would do is contact Subaru UK and explain the entire situation, remember that dealers are franchised and even though they don't like to admit it they do like to keep manufacturers happy. When it comes down to it the car you bought was produced by SUBARU and not the dealer.
I can't see them replacing the car no matter what but I would push for a brand new engine, the only problem being that you have accepted a repair, which means that they don't have to replace it. I'll check your exact rights tonight.
Have you tried a different dealer? You’ll be amazed what an experienced mechanic knows; it could be a problem that your specific dealer has never encountered before.
Drop some names; tell the dealer that you've been discussing it with the guys on the Scoobynet BBS.
If you can get a written statement from them which states that they think that the problem is actually a feature then you can present this to SUK and ask them what they intend to do about it.
09 November 2000, 10:24 AM
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Jason,
Dealer has been superb all along. They have been onto IM more times than I have. They were for the new short motor but were over ruled by IM and told to do a rebuild. The dealer knows it is not right but are led by IM at the end of the day.
Otis.
Dealer has been superb all along. They have been onto IM more times than I have. They were for the new short motor but were over ruled by IM and told to do a rebuild. The dealer knows it is not right but are led by IM at the end of the day.
Otis.
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09 November 2000, 10:41 AM
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RB170,
I wrote to the MD of IM a month back which prompted the latest actions. I am told the tone and content of the letter had an impact, Watchdog and motoring media all mentioned.
Since then I have been in contact with IM on an ongoing basis and the dealer is just doing as they are instructed. I do stress the dealer could not have been more helpful, the chief mechanic is an Impreza fan and to meet him makes you wonder why he isn't at Prodrive! Very knowledgeable, conscientious and eager to do things right.
I did not accept the rebuild. At the time I verbally told IM that I wanted a new engine and if the rebuild failed they would be replacing the car not the engine next time. They still went on and rebuilt it.
Otis.
I wrote to the MD of IM a month back which prompted the latest actions. I am told the tone and content of the letter had an impact, Watchdog and motoring media all mentioned.
Since then I have been in contact with IM on an ongoing basis and the dealer is just doing as they are instructed. I do stress the dealer could not have been more helpful, the chief mechanic is an Impreza fan and to meet him makes you wonder why he isn't at Prodrive! Very knowledgeable, conscientious and eager to do things right.
I did not accept the rebuild. At the time I verbally told IM that I wanted a new engine and if the rebuild failed they would be replacing the car not the engine next time. They still went on and rebuilt it.
Otis.
09 November 2000, 10:51 AM
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I can see why you’re not sure where to turn......your only avenue is to peruse IM. What did they say when you said that if the rebuild failed you wanted the car replaced?
I'll do my best to let you know where you stand legally...I'm not a solicitor myself but as they say "I know a man.."
I'll do my best to let you know where you stand legally...I'm not a solicitor myself but as they say "I know a man.."
09 November 2000, 11:55 AM
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Otis
I mentioned autoexpress because they often feature owners rejecting their cars because of defects.
If memory serves sometimes they fail to reject the cars because of very high mileage or work undertaken on the car.
You could try your luck, hand the keys to the dealer and tell him you are rejecting the car. That you want your money back or a new replacement.
Best of luck
Jason
I mentioned autoexpress because they often feature owners rejecting their cars because of defects.
If memory serves sometimes they fail to reject the cars because of very high mileage or work undertaken on the car.
You could try your luck, hand the keys to the dealer and tell him you are rejecting the car. That you want your money back or a new replacement.
Best of luck
Jason
09 November 2000, 11:55 AM
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Cheers RB170, the views of 'your man' is the kind of thing I think I need.
I can't remember what their reaction to new car was, I <I>think</I> it was along the lines of 'well let's see what happens with the rebuild before we get too far in front of ourselves'. I'm normally pretty good at covering myself with letters but things were moving that quick at this point. Kicking myself a bit now to be honest.
Otis.
I can't remember what their reaction to new car was, I <I>think</I> it was along the lines of 'well let's see what happens with the rebuild before we get too far in front of ourselves'. I'm normally pretty good at covering myself with letters but things were moving that quick at this point. Kicking myself a bit now to be honest.
Otis.
09 November 2000, 01:00 PM
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Hi Otis,
Full sympathy.
Have you tried calling the MD of IM, and discussing your issues with him? Explain that you are not happy, you've let IM do what they want, ie rebuild and it is still not done to your satisfaction, then ask him what HE proposes in order to solve your problem.
Follow up with a letter playing back the conversation and hopefully the conclusions of the phone call.
HTH
Greg
Full sympathy.
Have you tried calling the MD of IM, and discussing your issues with him? Explain that you are not happy, you've let IM do what they want, ie rebuild and it is still not done to your satisfaction, then ask him what HE proposes in order to solve your problem.
Follow up with a letter playing back the conversation and hopefully the conclusions of the phone call.
HTH
Greg
09 November 2000, 01:37 PM
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The other mechanic idea is a good one.
I had a situation previously with an underperforming performance rebuild. A race prep place had it for a day and "doubted the timing", so I had it checked and it was ok.
Drove to see a mate who is an ace mechanic, and he met me at my car at the end of his drive with the quote "I expected you to be complaining about your car, its only running on 3 cylinders!"
This he diagnosed from his kitchen as I dove past his house to turn round.
What did that say about the race experts who had spent a day trying to identify the fault?
You will need to find a scooby expert tho, as mechanics I know dont like the scooby sound we all love as "it sounds like its got a plug off".
best of luck
robski
I had a situation previously with an underperforming performance rebuild. A race prep place had it for a day and "doubted the timing", so I had it checked and it was ok.
Drove to see a mate who is an ace mechanic, and he met me at my car at the end of his drive with the quote "I expected you to be complaining about your car, its only running on 3 cylinders!"
This he diagnosed from his kitchen as I dove past his house to turn round.
What did that say about the race experts who had spent a day trying to identify the fault?
You will need to find a scooby expert tho, as mechanics I know dont like the scooby sound we all love as "it sounds like its got a plug off".
best of luck
robski
10 November 2000, 12:44 AM
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Otis,
Maybe IM are taking this stance with you because they know you have a record of some "previous"?
They have no justification in doing that, but I just wonder if that's why they are trying to be difficult.
You know, the way insurance companies are.
Maybe IM are taking this stance with you because they know you have a record of some "previous"?
They have no justification in doing that, but I just wonder if that's why they are trying to be difficult.
You know, the way insurance companies are.
10 November 2000, 08:07 AM
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Otis
Spoke to my mate last night, got some good information.
First a description of a WARRANTY in terms I can understand.
"Warranties are usually issued by manufacturers; they PROMISE to repair or replace defective parts within a certain period from the date of purchase".
I think that helps to clarify exactly what we're dealing with....
Secondly defective goods.
"If you buy goods that are DEFECTIVE, FAULTY or wrongly described, the trader who sold them to you MUST pay for compensation or refund your money IN FULL if:
The goods do not match the seller’s description.
They are not of SATISFACTORY QUALITY.
The goods turn out not to be reasonably fit for the purpose for which they were bought.
"Satisfactory quality is a relative concept based on a reasonable person's expectations. You are entitled to expect a higher standard of finish and durability from a new car costing £20,000 than from a secondhand car costing £3,000. The term SATISFACTORY QUALITY was introduced in the Sale and Supply of Goods ACT 1994.
So what we're saying is that provided you reported the problem within a reasonable amount of time, say within the first year manufacturers warranty period, you are entitled to get a replacement or a refund even if they have attempted to repair the fault.
I would demand at least a new engine try this. Let them have one more attempt at repairing it but get them to agree, in writing, that if this attempt is unsuccessful then will either give you a new car or a least a new engine. If they don't take them to court you’ve been more than reasonable.
Hope this helps
Mike
Spoke to my mate last night, got some good information.
First a description of a WARRANTY in terms I can understand.
"Warranties are usually issued by manufacturers; they PROMISE to repair or replace defective parts within a certain period from the date of purchase".
I think that helps to clarify exactly what we're dealing with....
Secondly defective goods.
"If you buy goods that are DEFECTIVE, FAULTY or wrongly described, the trader who sold them to you MUST pay for compensation or refund your money IN FULL if:
The goods do not match the seller’s description.
They are not of SATISFACTORY QUALITY.
The goods turn out not to be reasonably fit for the purpose for which they were bought.
"Satisfactory quality is a relative concept based on a reasonable person's expectations. You are entitled to expect a higher standard of finish and durability from a new car costing £20,000 than from a secondhand car costing £3,000. The term SATISFACTORY QUALITY was introduced in the Sale and Supply of Goods ACT 1994.
So what we're saying is that provided you reported the problem within a reasonable amount of time, say within the first year manufacturers warranty period, you are entitled to get a replacement or a refund even if they have attempted to repair the fault.
I would demand at least a new engine try this. Let them have one more attempt at repairing it but get them to agree, in writing, that if this attempt is unsuccessful then will either give you a new car or a least a new engine. If they don't take them to court you’ve been more than reasonable.
Hope this helps
Mike
10 November 2000, 08:28 AM
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Forgot something....
There are 3 associations in the UK for complaints and or disputes.
Retail Motor Industry Fedration (RMI)
Cestnut House, 32 North Street, Rugby CV21 2AH TEL- 01788 538316
Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT)
Forbes House, Halkin Street, London SW1X 7DS TEL-020 7235 7000
Vehicle Builders and Repairers Association (VBRA)
Belmont House, Finkle Lane, Gildersome, Leeds LS27 7TW TEL-0113 253 8333
Mike
There are 3 associations in the UK for complaints and or disputes.
Retail Motor Industry Fedration (RMI)
Cestnut House, 32 North Street, Rugby CV21 2AH TEL- 01788 538316
Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT)
Forbes House, Halkin Street, London SW1X 7DS TEL-020 7235 7000
Vehicle Builders and Repairers Association (VBRA)
Belmont House, Finkle Lane, Gildersome, Leeds LS27 7TW TEL-0113 253 8333
Mike
10 November 2000, 10:44 AM
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Mike you're a star! Many thanks for that and let battle commence! Funnily enough since yesterday lunchtime the car is now as bad as ever 
. You've confirmed what I was thinking in that they get one more chance but the course of action after that will be agreed in writing now.
I'll fax IM today.
Many thanks again,
Otis.
. You've confirmed what I was thinking in that they get one more chance but the course of action after that will be agreed in writing now.I'll fax IM today.
Many thanks again,
Otis.
10 November 2000, 06:52 PM
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Otis,
If it's still got another year of warranty to go, you could try and forget the problem and just enjoy the car, otherwise you'll spend your whole time worrying about it rather than enjoying it.
Another few months of hard driving should make the problem worse and more easy to diagnose.
If it's still got another year of warranty to go, you could try and forget the problem and just enjoy the car, otherwise you'll spend your whole time worrying about it rather than enjoying it.
Another few months of hard driving should make the problem worse and more easy to diagnose.
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