BIG END failure
#1
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BIG END failure
My fiance has an imprezza on a W plate. Recently took it to a reputable scooby dealership for a 67.5k service. All appeared fine when we picked the car back up but low and behold 100 miles down the road the engine starts making a knocking noise.
We get the car shipped back to the dealership as we were slightly concerned by the sudden appearance of a gremlin in the engine area.
The garage removed and stripped the engine and found 'big end failure'. Luckily ( or not as the case may be..?) as he didnt continue driving the car, the impacting damage wasnt as bad as it could have been. The crank has had to be reground, and a new con rod put in.
I phoned Subaru UK as we werent too impressed that this had happened on a vehicle of its age and mileage - it is serviced regularly by Subaru - and especially as it had just had a service and nothing was detected by the technicians. The unhelpful little man ( who couldnt answer half my concerns) suggested that this is an uncommon problem and that we ask the garage to submit a request for 'goodwill' to help with the mammoth repair bill - even though the vehicle is out of warranty, apparently Subaru consider these things on a case by case basis.
We got the car back tonight after 2 weeks with a ' get stuffed' from Suburau UK ( well more like a 'regret unable to assist at this age and mileage). Why do they bother to suggest this course of action if they immediately tell you where to go?
Has anyone else had a similar problem with their big end? Or had a similar experience with Subaru UK?
We get the car shipped back to the dealership as we were slightly concerned by the sudden appearance of a gremlin in the engine area.
The garage removed and stripped the engine and found 'big end failure'. Luckily ( or not as the case may be..?) as he didnt continue driving the car, the impacting damage wasnt as bad as it could have been. The crank has had to be reground, and a new con rod put in.
I phoned Subaru UK as we werent too impressed that this had happened on a vehicle of its age and mileage - it is serviced regularly by Subaru - and especially as it had just had a service and nothing was detected by the technicians. The unhelpful little man ( who couldnt answer half my concerns) suggested that this is an uncommon problem and that we ask the garage to submit a request for 'goodwill' to help with the mammoth repair bill - even though the vehicle is out of warranty, apparently Subaru consider these things on a case by case basis.
We got the car back tonight after 2 weeks with a ' get stuffed' from Suburau UK ( well more like a 'regret unable to assist at this age and mileage). Why do they bother to suggest this course of action if they immediately tell you where to go?
Has anyone else had a similar problem with their big end? Or had a similar experience with Subaru UK?
#2
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Its not so uncommon Im afraid, especially after an oil and filter change. Id be looking to establish exactly what procedure the dealer followed when changing the filter, paying particular attention to the way that they started the engine for the first time after the swap... If they dont crank the engine without allowing it to start at the least, ideally removing the plugs and building pressure that way, then the bearings can fail. Getting them to accept liability is a different matter, but Id consider going straight to the small claims court.....
Simon
Simon
#3
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Thanks Simon - it's obviously worth looking into further then - guess what I am probably doing tomorrow...!
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hi, sorry to hear about the scoob.where abouts are you from?thing is i have just had the 67.5mile service aswell on my99 turbo.did your fiance notice anything different about the car when you got it back-noises,revs fluttering anything out of the norm?
will be speaking to the mechanic tommorrow to put my mind at ease.
Lee
will be speaking to the mechanic tommorrow to put my mind at ease.
Lee
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Originally Posted by GC8
Id be looking to establish exactly what procedure the dealer followed when changing the filter, paying particular attention to the way that they started the engine for the first time after the swap... If they dont crank the engine without allowing it to start at the least
Unfortunately some dealers don't even pre-fill the filter!
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if its so uncommen why did subaru issue a dealer bulletin thingy on the correct procedure for an oil change, something along the lines of, fill and keep topping up the new oil filter until it absorbs no more oil. then crank the engine over whilst not letting it start and as said above ideally without the plugs until the low oil pressure light goes out. not following this procedure has been atributed to many engine failures soon after service / oil change hence the need for the bulletin. and if they had to issue a bulletin is that not an admission to some degree that there is a problem? getting them to admit they didn't follow this procedure (if at all they didn't) is a different matter. anyone with more know how agree or not?
stevie
stevie
Last edited by stevie boy; 22 February 2005 at 12:09 AM.
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#8
That about the correct age and mileage for a MAF failure to occur, which can lead to big end engine failure.
The MAF sensor on an MY99/00 is fragile and they gradually deteriorate, which the ECU compensates for. When you have a service the ECU is reset and the compansation learning for a failing MAF is wiped from the ECU, this can leave the engine running lean which can kill the big ends.
I would suspect a MAF issue, when the engine was rebuilt did they install a new MAF sensor? (this is the sensor in the air inlet pipe from the airfilter to the turbo that measures the amount of air entering the engine)
The MAF sensor on an MY99/00 is fragile and they gradually deteriorate, which the ECU compensates for. When you have a service the ECU is reset and the compansation learning for a failing MAF is wiped from the ECU, this can leave the engine running lean which can kill the big ends.
I would suspect a MAF issue, when the engine was rebuilt did they install a new MAF sensor? (this is the sensor in the air inlet pipe from the airfilter to the turbo that measures the amount of air entering the engine)
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Originally Posted by scooby stu!!
stevie boy, dont suppose you know where I could get a copy of that bulletin
stevie
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I don't think there is a bulletin about the oil change procedure. I've read about it here a few times, but no-one has been able to produce anything. The dealer I asked was also unaware of such a bulletin.
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Originally Posted by AndyC_772
It's not, sorry
I heard about this alleged bulletin too but was never able to lay my hands on a copy.
I heard about this alleged bulletin too but was never able to lay my hands on a copy.
#15
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I have a MY00 and am aware of the MAF issue, but the revs go all over don't they when that fails?
I am convinced that the Subaru Main Dealer I go to doesn't see any point in tarting about with turning the engine over on the starter first ............ indeed, the Apprentice does the Servicing!!!
The Apprentice is too busy thinking about his love-bite to really give a bollox about an old wives tale
Pete
Could you tell us what the bill was?
I am convinced that the Subaru Main Dealer I go to doesn't see any point in tarting about with turning the engine over on the starter first ............ indeed, the Apprentice does the Servicing!!!
The Apprentice is too busy thinking about his love-bite to really give a bollox about an old wives tale
Pete
Could you tell us what the bill was?
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I phoned the dealership today and gave them the 3rd degree over the MAF sensor - they have confirmed that from their point of view all was and still is ok with it. Lets just hope, for their sake, they are right otherwise.....
The total cost came to just under £2500. The garage have been pretty good about knocking down the price slightly - but is this because they are feeling bad about something, me wonders? hhmmm..
Scoob is now back home - my other half is glad to see her as it beats running round in the Mitsubishi Space Star they loaned us!
The total cost came to just under £2500. The garage have been pretty good about knocking down the price slightly - but is this because they are feeling bad about something, me wonders? hhmmm..
Scoob is now back home - my other half is glad to see her as it beats running round in the Mitsubishi Space Star they loaned us!
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I had similar problems with My MY99 UK Turbo. 56000 miles and i needed a new short engine. All dealers are different and i managed to get all parts paid for by subaru. (£2000) Some you win some you loose but keep on at them. You may have a chance.
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As has previously been stated, it would appear that 'Big END' failure is not uncommon.
I had mine go ....surprisingly enough, not that long after an oil change....at around 90K miles.
mine's an my93wrx.
Subaru, quoted me in the region of £2500 to do the job....
i opted for a second hand engine, which i managed to source via ebay ...... and the supplier fitted it for me....roughly a grand , plus my old engine in pt ex.
i too have read about the horror stories about not doing oil changes properly, so much so im **** scared of having another one done.
Frank
edit - i was told around £450 for a new crank
2nd edit - if you have a service done, the 'product' should be fit for use ...if your engine goes pop after 100 miles, surely that would indicate that wasnt the case ....and legally you have comeback on the supplier of the service.
I had mine go ....surprisingly enough, not that long after an oil change....at around 90K miles.
mine's an my93wrx.
Subaru, quoted me in the region of £2500 to do the job....
i opted for a second hand engine, which i managed to source via ebay ...... and the supplier fitted it for me....roughly a grand , plus my old engine in pt ex.
i too have read about the horror stories about not doing oil changes properly, so much so im **** scared of having another one done.
Frank
edit - i was told around £450 for a new crank
2nd edit - if you have a service done, the 'product' should be fit for use ...if your engine goes pop after 100 miles, surely that would indicate that wasnt the case ....and legally you have comeback on the supplier of the service.
Last edited by redwrx; 22 February 2005 at 07:26 PM.
#21
There was never a bulletin regarding the oil changing procedure that went as far as tell the techs to pre fill the filter etc..
There is however a bulletin that states that when carrying out an oil change, the engine was only to be refilled with 4.25 litres of oil instead of the stated 4.5 litres. This takes the level to midway between min and max and means that when the oil is hot it will touch the maximum on the dipstick.. It states that failure to follow this it could lead to big-end failure immediately after a service..
A copy of the document has been posted on here in the past. But I am looking thru my documents to find it..
There is however a bulletin that states that when carrying out an oil change, the engine was only to be refilled with 4.25 litres of oil instead of the stated 4.5 litres. This takes the level to midway between min and max and means that when the oil is hot it will touch the maximum on the dipstick.. It states that failure to follow this it could lead to big-end failure immediately after a service..
A copy of the document has been posted on here in the past. But I am looking thru my documents to find it..
#22
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I seem to remember that the MAF meter failure had something to do with over-filling the oil ....... are we saying that the Big-End goes because of MAF failure??
And NOT because of oil starvation??
Pete
And NOT because of oil starvation??
Pete
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Originally Posted by little'un
Is it a good idea to have the crank reground and put back in?
Stu / Anna - I meant to ask - did you enquire why a new one wasn't used?
Lin
Stu / Anna - I meant to ask - did you enquire why a new one wasn't used?
Lin
Last edited by little-ginge; 22 February 2005 at 08:20 PM.
#24
you remember incorectly pete. MAF's on MY99/00 are easy to contaminate by using an oiled aftermarket air filter. They also dont like induction kits.
I would treat an MY99/00 MAF as a service replacement item at 50K miles, they fail and deteriorate far to often after this point to risk your engine over a £77 item.
I would treat an MY99/00 MAF as a service replacement item at 50K miles, they fail and deteriorate far to often after this point to risk your engine over a £77 item.
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Originally Posted by johnfelstead
Dont ever use a reground crank on an STi spec engine, you can get away with it on a UK spec.
I would love to know the reasoning behind an extra 0.25ltr of oil causing a bearing failure! If Subaru issue this statement it must be backed-up with a proven reason?
JohnD
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Originally Posted by pslewis
I seem to remember that the MAF meter failure had something to do with over-filling the oil ....... are we saying that the Big-End goes because of MAF failure??
And NOT because of oil starvation??
Pete
And NOT because of oil starvation??
Pete
Simon
Last edited by GC8; 22 February 2005 at 09:31 PM.
#29
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Originally Posted by johnfelstead
I would treat an MY99/00 MAF as a service replacement item at 50K miles, they fail and deteriorate far to often after this point to risk your engine over a £77 item.
My car MY00 is on 56k miles and seems ok, but, its out of warranty in May 2005 and knowing my luck it will 'go' in June! BUT, it hasn't been messed about with at all!?
Pete
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Originally Posted by pslewis
So? I suppose a STANDARD car with the standard induction and only touched when replacing Air Filter should be ok for ever??
My car MY00 is on 56k miles and seems ok, but, its out of warranty in May 2005 and knowing my luck it will 'go' in June! BUT, it hasn't been messed about with at all!?
Pete
My car MY00 is on 56k miles and seems ok, but, its out of warranty in May 2005 and knowing my luck it will 'go' in June! BUT, it hasn't been messed about with at all!?
Pete