CF2

True account of an RTA.
My dad's work college was driving his Audi along the motorway when he pulled into the middle lane to overtake a wagon(big thing, not a 5 door scooby) doing 70-75 mph. When the back wheel of his car was level with the front of the wagon, the wagon pulled into the middle lane and pushed the audi round underneath the front of the wagon and pushed it along the motorway at 70mph. Luckily he wasn't injured and informed the police immediately. When they showed up they said they already knew exactly what had happened and usually the people in the car are taken away in body bags.
What had happened was due to the wagon being foreign and therefore - left hand drive and with the driver being so high up,the audi driver was caught in a 'blind spot'.
This morning, driving to work, i was checking every wagon for foreign number plates when overtaking.
Please take care.
Last day at work today so no scoobynet for 2 weeks, so ya'll have a merry christmas and a happy new year.

scooby L

Reminds me of this...
I was catching up with an lorry on the m-way.
I just caught up to about 15 yards behind him when his front driverside tyre blew and he was in the central reservation just short of rubbing along the armco before he saved it..(he started in the slow lane) if I was along side him I know where I would have ended up.

OllyK

Also take care of army trucks, they are left hand drive. Used to be in the TA and one of the drivers in my Convoy did the same thing to a Rover on the A14. Again, thankfully, everybody was OK, but very shaken up.

There is also a moral here about looking ahead and reading the road (Get hold of the Advanced Driving Manual, or better yet take the test, some bits I don't agree with, but in general well worth while, really imporves your observations). Look ahead and if you see a vehicle in the lane on the inside of you approaching another vehicle in front of it, then if you can move over another lane as chances are they will be looking to pull out.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

What nearly happened to PTMW! back in July, except I think the driver was 1/2 asleep as he didn't push fully into the lane & I don't think he was intending to change lane. I still had to counter-steer to avoid being spun though.

Regular instances of this backed up by police friend with too many years experience on the M25. As your friend was advised.

OllyK

Another final point as well, just coz a wagon has UK plates does not mean that it is a right hooker. A lot of UK continental drivers choose to driver left hookers as they spend most of the time across the stream.

Not easy to check I know, but if you are overtaking and the side you can see has a curbside mirror (the one mounted above the window looking down) then chances are its a left hooker.

All that being said, just be careful whenever you overtake - ANYTHING, cars are bad for not looking or signalling and a car hitting your front end with its rear when you are doing 70 on the M-Way is not going to be nice either!

smb1

End of the day though, left hand drive or not, if the wagon driver was 'fully' aware of the road users around him, usin his mirrors all the time then he'd spot the potential accident earlier.


And anyway, thought the legal limit for lorries was about 55mph? the way i see it is there shouldn't be much need for em to leave the first lane at that top speed.

[Edited by smb1 - 12/18/2003 9:16:51 AM]

OllyK

I don't deny that at all smb1.

Work on the assumption that everybody else on the road is an idiot and think for them as well!

The blind spot on the outside for left hookers is huge. Less of an issue on right hand drive as I'd always have a quick look out the side window before pulling out (do the same in the car, mainly coz of bikes). Army trucks are supposed to have co-drivers to do the look out of the window bit, but 9 times out of 10 they don't have them and commercial drivers very rarely have them.

smb1

Aye, best way to do it, just treat everyone else as a liability!

OllyK

smb1 - leagal limit on the M-Way for trucks >7.5 is actually 60mph. All newer trucks should be fitted with a limiter set at circa 55mph. These are not calibrated and so the varience can be quite large. So even limitied vehicles have different top speeds and the older ones can quite happiliy do 60 mph (some of the newer ones with Irish drivers and wired limiters will be doing more!)

Also there is a lot of difference on hills. A full up truck at 38T + will struggle to maintain 55mph up a hill unless it has a really meaty engine. Unladen ones can maintain the speed and so will want to try and get past.

IMHO speed limiters on trucks are the cause of a lot of fustration, especially on dual carriage ways where 2 trucks can be side by side for miles with one trying to get past. Think it would be better to scrap them and make it the drivers responsibility to adhere to the speed as it is for car drivers etc. That way they could put their foot down and speed up to 65 say to clear another truck before pulling over and then returning to the legal limit.

chiark

Another vote for the "assume everyone else is an idiot and will perform the most stupid move going" school of driving

Glad you're all OK

smb1

ollyk, i knew somebody would double check my hgv speed claims but it was only a rough guideline!!!

OllyK

smb1 - no need to "check", I have my C+E (class 1 for the old timers)

[Edited by OllyK - 12/18/2003 9:29:31 AM]

smb1

Thought u might have mentioned then that if <7.5 then legal limit is 70mph !!!!

OllyK

smb1 - just for you

Cars vans and motorcycles 30 60 70 70
Cars towing 30 50 60 60
Buses and coaches 30 50 60 70
< 7.5 tonnes 30 50 60 70
> 7.5 tonnes 30 40 50 60


Edited coz the formatting is a pile of poo!
Col 1 = Urban / Built up
Col 2 = Single Carriage
Col 3 = Dual Carriage
Col 4 = M-Way

[Edited by OllyK - 12/18/2003 9:37:54 AM]

OllyK

Oh and I forgot

Scooby 30 110 140 155

smb1

All in kph of course

[Edited by smb1 - 12/18/2003 9:41:00 AM]

NACRO

I drive a right hand UK wagon on continental roads all the time and never have this problem. Then again I always do an over the shoulder safety check before pulling out use my mirrors constantly while driving. The problem here is innatentivness and a lack of skill not which side the steering wheel is on.

OllyK

Nacro

On the whole I do agree with you, there is no substitute for skill and attention.

However, when you have vehicles passing on your passengers side I assume you do find that they dissapear in to your blind spot for a while and as they are on the wrong side you can't have a look out of the window, without putting cruise control on and taking a stroll over the other side . What stops you (and me) from squashing these cars is that we check the passengers side mirror very frequently and keep an eye on what is going in to the blind spot and then "check them back out" as they pass the front of the truck.

I suspect that what has happened in the situations mentioned is that the the driver has missed something coming up behind him due to not checking mirrors often enough. Dark / poor weather conditions, similar colour / types of vehicle all add to the problem and especially fat moving vehicles coming up that then slow down next to you due to traffic in front of them and then hover about in the blind spot.

[Edited by OllyK - 12/18/2003 10:03:55 AM]

rossyboy

iTrader: (8)

5th Gear had this on their programme a few weeks back with a demonstration of how it happens.

Brit_in_Japan

Similar thing happened to me some years ago on the M5 in the dark. Pulled out from the inside lane to overtake a car. As I was just getting level with the rear bumber, the car pulled out. I knew there was nothing outside me so I just swerved into the outside lane. I was going faster so there was no chance to brake. But the driver of the other car had fallen asleep and the car continued coming out. I was just about in the gravel next to the central reservation when the other car stuck mine just ahead of the rear axle. I got a bit of a tank slapper on but was lucky to hold it together. My heart has never beaten faster! Always assume other drivers are going to do something stupid and plan accordingly.

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Yup - saw that 5th gear prog Mighty scary! It's useful to see things from other drivers perspectives though.

Mick

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Many car drivers just don't realise how big the blind spots on big vans or truck and artics are. I'm not saying it's anyones fault, its just one of those things.

Reading the road ahead is always a good key here...if the truck is approaching another vehicle in that lane - be aware that he'll want to overtake. Be aware that they maybe tired, or can't see your car (because your driving in the rain with no lights on etc). Also be aware that he may not have seen you - so never linger alongside a truck. And when changing lane give enough time to indicate your intentions (you know Mirror..Signal - THEN manouver). It's an increasing habit on todays road where its Signal AND manouver. It's all basic common sense really.

lmsbman

Some good points here. To be a good driver, you have constantly got to plan ahead for other road users actions. I've heard so many people say "it wasn't my fault". True, but what would you rather have, an accident which wasn't your fault or no accident at all?

With regard to blind spots, I have dealt with two fatals where pedestrians have been squashed by LGV's. These have occurred when the lorry has been stationary in heavy traffic and some silly idiot has walked from the left-hand side(right-hand drive vehicles) right up close to the bumper. The poor lorry driver had no way of knowing they were there and pulled away driving straight over them. I measured the blind spot in the front nearside and the average height pedestrian needs to be at least 0.7metres from the front of the cab for the driver to be able to see them.
The transport research lab are currently investigating uses of sensors to eliminate this, but that will still be a few years away.

John P

lmsbman
Totally agree with your comments. I remember a year or so ago HGV's having little stickers saying if you cant see my mirrors I cant see you. I wonder how many people still took no notice. I still see people up the **** of lorries weaving from side to side to see if it is clear to overtake, rather than sit 20/30 meters behind and see the whole road ahead of the lorry.

NACRO

Very thought provoking comments throughout this thread, certainly a few pointers here for all I would hope.

OllyK- I'd never thought consciously of the procedure "of checking out" the cars that I've seen in the mirrors but that describes to a tee what I do. I'm sure a background as a motorcyclist makes one more defensive and aware of your surroundings even when you transfer to a car. It surprises me how few motorists seem to bother with a "life saver" over the shoulder check.

I can well understand how a truck driver can hit a pedestrian, people really need to understand just how many blind spots these guys have and also the amount of room they need to maneuver

[Edited by NACRO - 12/18/2003 1:01:45 PM]

edited again as I seem to be having finger trouble

[Edited by NACRO - 12/18/2003 1:26:13 PM]

OllyK

Room to manoeuvre, don't even get me started!!

The number of silly round abouts that a truck turning right has to go to the left lane to make it round are ridiculous. And what happens? Truck in left lane, indicating right, car drivers think "silly muppet" and come down the right hand side and then wonder why they get chopped to bits on the round about.

Oh then there is the approach to the round about / junction. Idiot comes flying down the outside but wants to turn left so cuts in front of the truck just before the junction and then wonders why he has a truck parked on his roof.

Truck drivers have a tough time of it all in all, and it doesn't help when people think these 38T+ bits of kit will stop in the same space as hot hatch or can turn on a penny. Help yourself by helping them!

Spoon

Slightly off subject but along the lines of Nacro's comment. Why don't pedestrians think more about the dangers of vehicles?

I'm staggered at the amount of people who continue to barge past the back/front of cars in places like supermarkets.

Often there is a path to walk on but they choose to walk on the road part when vehicles are busily trying to park and should be given the right of way.

I watched the other day while a guy was forced to wait about 3 minutes before he could park. He was also blocking the road so cars were now queueing up.

It wasn't his fault at all. Eventually he nudged forward with a few more revs as though he needed to make his presence noticed. Even then he was met with a stare from "Mr O.Blivion" walking past.

Of course big lorries pose much more of a threat both on the road and during slow manoeuvres, they should be given a wide-berth.

dead_neurons

the best way for any driver to increase their observations is to ride a motorbike for a year or more. Christ, that really is death on a stick sometimes, but it *does* make you infinately more aware of what other people are about to do....oh, and you grow eyes in your *** too. Even now, i still do a lifesaver at every junction - just gives you that second chance to bottle it and stop...

/2ob