Anyway - why are you arguing with yourself
12 September 2001, 02:12 PM
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Oi fast bloke.
Aren't people in Northern Ireland, whilst shocked like the rest of us, a bit peeved about the reportage of this event?
After all they've been putting up with similar outrages (albeit less loss of life in one go) more or less every day for the last thirty odd years?
Do they have a fellow feeling with citizens of the West bank or Gaza who apparently are daily victims of Jewish terrorism?
Somehow, I doubt it.
I'd be interested to know how you and your circle view matters from over there.
Aren't people in Northern Ireland, whilst shocked like the rest of us, a bit peeved about the reportage of this event?
After all they've been putting up with similar outrages (albeit less loss of life in one go) more or less every day for the last thirty odd years?
Do they have a fellow feeling with citizens of the West bank or Gaza who apparently are daily victims of Jewish terrorism?
Somehow, I doubt it.
I'd be interested to know how you and your circle view matters from over there.
12 September 2001, 02:56 PM
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Jon&Nicci -- see the link above
Barry - I could write a Felstead sized reply but I'll give you a condensed version (only a couple of thousand words then). In my view most terrorists are normal people who feel they have a legitimate serious gripe against another group or the state, and that covert operations are the only way to make themselves heard. While people believe there is only right or wrong there will never be a solution to any terrorist conflict. I am probably not as shocked at the pics from America as I have been living in the middle of similar for 30 years. I have seen limbless people being carried screaming from bombed buildings, played with, studied with and worked with people who went on to become terrorists and members of the security forces (though not both as a general rule.) A very close friend was walking through the Ardoyne last week when loyalists threw a blast bomb at schoolchildren. When you know the full story behind each atrocity and the history of the people who are commiting them them you can see that relatiation only leads to escalation and that in many cases you would feel the same given the same set of circumstances. The US can hit back now at Bin Laden or whoever, and the net effect will be another 200 people prepared to die to inflict revenge on the US. Even if they where to commit genocide, they would stiull alienate enough people to ensure retaliation at some point. As I have already posted today, I think it is time for US to review foriegn policy and find out why there are so many people prepared to die to inflict pain on the USA. The answers are fairly obviuos, but they may come up with solutions to change these peoples perceptions. It is happening very very slowly in Ireland, but perceptions are changing. Once we reach a decent final agreement here, it will still take two or three generations for the bitterness to go away, and the same will apply to other conflicts. people have been retaliating for thousands of years. It has never solved anything. Don't forget, WW2 was Germany's retaliation for WW1.
To answer you questions directly
Aren't people in Northern Ireland, whilst shocked like the rest of us, a bit peeved about the reportage of this event.
Probably not as shocked but not peeved about the reportage. In saying that, America is the biggest source of income for one of the most organised terrorist organisation in the world. Maybe this will now stop that America realises what terrorism is really about
After all they've been putting up with similar outrages (albeit less loss of life in one go) more or less every day for the last thirty odd years.
If your brother or father gets shot bombed etc, you probably don't care too much about the total bodycount. I get the feeling that people are sensationalising the possible amount of people killed. If I don't know any of them then I will be sad for a couple of days. If a close friend or relation has been killed then I will grieve for them. Not the hundreds or thousands of unknowns.
Do they have a fellow feeling with citizens of the West bank or Gaza who apparently are daily victims of Jewish terrorism.
I don't feel like a victim. I know some people who are victims. I can't really decide who they are victims of. Some loyalists killed some catholics in retaliation for some non murder type incident. Some other catholics retaliated. The British Army was brought in to keep the peace. They killed some catholics on a march. Some other catholics retaliated more. Some other loyalists got fed up with the catholics killing people and started killing them back. Armies where formed, people where bombed, shot killed and maimed. Bitterness against the 'other side' increased with every act. Tell me now who is to blame for the next killing. It may be obvious who pulls the trigger, but every retaliation over the past 30 years has had an influence on the gunmans life. Maybe his father was killed in a bombing in 1970? Does this really make him an evil person, or simply a person who justifiably wants revenge.
Barry - I could write a Felstead sized reply but I'll give you a condensed version (only a couple of thousand words then). In my view most terrorists are normal people who feel they have a legitimate serious gripe against another group or the state, and that covert operations are the only way to make themselves heard. While people believe there is only right or wrong there will never be a solution to any terrorist conflict. I am probably not as shocked at the pics from America as I have been living in the middle of similar for 30 years. I have seen limbless people being carried screaming from bombed buildings, played with, studied with and worked with people who went on to become terrorists and members of the security forces (though not both as a general rule.) A very close friend was walking through the Ardoyne last week when loyalists threw a blast bomb at schoolchildren. When you know the full story behind each atrocity and the history of the people who are commiting them them you can see that relatiation only leads to escalation and that in many cases you would feel the same given the same set of circumstances. The US can hit back now at Bin Laden or whoever, and the net effect will be another 200 people prepared to die to inflict revenge on the US. Even if they where to commit genocide, they would stiull alienate enough people to ensure retaliation at some point. As I have already posted today, I think it is time for US to review foriegn policy and find out why there are so many people prepared to die to inflict pain on the USA. The answers are fairly obviuos, but they may come up with solutions to change these peoples perceptions. It is happening very very slowly in Ireland, but perceptions are changing. Once we reach a decent final agreement here, it will still take two or three generations for the bitterness to go away, and the same will apply to other conflicts. people have been retaliating for thousands of years. It has never solved anything. Don't forget, WW2 was Germany's retaliation for WW1.
To answer you questions directly
Aren't people in Northern Ireland, whilst shocked like the rest of us, a bit peeved about the reportage of this event.
Probably not as shocked but not peeved about the reportage. In saying that, America is the biggest source of income for one of the most organised terrorist organisation in the world. Maybe this will now stop that America realises what terrorism is really about
After all they've been putting up with similar outrages (albeit less loss of life in one go) more or less every day for the last thirty odd years.
If your brother or father gets shot bombed etc, you probably don't care too much about the total bodycount. I get the feeling that people are sensationalising the possible amount of people killed. If I don't know any of them then I will be sad for a couple of days. If a close friend or relation has been killed then I will grieve for them. Not the hundreds or thousands of unknowns.
Do they have a fellow feeling with citizens of the West bank or Gaza who apparently are daily victims of Jewish terrorism.
I don't feel like a victim. I know some people who are victims. I can't really decide who they are victims of. Some loyalists killed some catholics in retaliation for some non murder type incident. Some other catholics retaliated. The British Army was brought in to keep the peace. They killed some catholics on a march. Some other catholics retaliated more. Some other loyalists got fed up with the catholics killing people and started killing them back. Armies where formed, people where bombed, shot killed and maimed. Bitterness against the 'other side' increased with every act. Tell me now who is to blame for the next killing. It may be obvious who pulls the trigger, but every retaliation over the past 30 years has had an influence on the gunmans life. Maybe his father was killed in a bombing in 1970? Does this really make him an evil person, or simply a person who justifiably wants revenge.
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12 September 2001, 03:13 PM
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JOhn - Pete was posting a new topic for each piece of info he revieved. I started these two topics. Read all Petes topics and then these two titles. all will become apparent
12 September 2001, 03:43 PM
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fastbloke,
Thanks for that.
I don't want people to become obsessed with terrorism v the US, when we have failed to solve the problem on our doorstep.
I am mostly hopeful that the US will wise up and realise that no terrorism is good terrorism.
Thanks for that.
I don't want people to become obsessed with terrorism v the US, when we have failed to solve the problem on our doorstep.
I am mostly hopeful that the US will wise up and realise that no terrorism is good terrorism.
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