elondan

I own an MY99,
I want to improve the performance but am not sure if PPP is the best way to go.
I want it to be around 240-250 hp with 36 Kg-m, now I know the PPP will give this to me, but is there a better and cheaper way to get there? (Scoobysport...)

WREXY

There is. You can have your stock ECU re mapped by EcuTek. More info on their web site. http://www.ecutek.com

Cheers,

Wrexy.

LG John

Agreed, get a full de-cat and if your not into loundness a more restictive backbox then get it TEC3'd, all in it'll be a bit cheaper than the PPP but it will waste a PPP'd car

Neil Smalley

Is warranty and resale value important to you?
If Yes, then PPP is the way to go. Otherwise there are loads of options.

I had a PPP on my old MY00. It was a stunning mod and improved on the car so much. 2nd seemed like 1st, 3rd like 2nd etc etc

rich a

saxo boy

how do you know it would waste a ppp'd car...

have you seen times on a strip to compare

rich

Wuss

It does depend what kind of person you are. I took my UK MY00 standard, running 95 RON, and added the PPP. I also changed to Optimax five tanks before the new PPP ECU was fitted and the improvement was remarkable. Obviously, I do not have any figures but the car feels MUCH quicker, especially between 40mph and 80mph. I also got a quickshift which is an essential purchase IMHO.

The PPP changes make the car loud enough as far as I am concerned and I like the fact that I have used a tried and tested modification which will not result in me blowing up the car!

I guess I wanted a reasonable improvement in power, within the terms of the warranty and without any risk.

Call me a Wuss if you like!!!

LG John

I've been in Chris Grants (MY00 TEC3) car and despite being silkly smooth with no sudden power delivery it still pulled like a train and 'felt' fast!!! The difference was so big enough to notice and the speedo went nutts, even a conservative estimate would be 265bhp for a TEC3 opperating of a full decat and that's a bitty more than a PPP.

To answer your question though, no I've not had a direct comparison but if I get my car TEC3'd I'll find a PPP'er for you at crail and report back

SCOSaltire

SB
pay for my runs at crail and ill let u compare

LG John

Phil.....dream on

ozzy

For a chap in Israel, you'll probbly loose the warranty anyway by fitting the PPP. This was happening in Europe, but may have changed recently.

It's known what the PPP ECU does exactly, so this could easily be directly written to a std ECU map ala Tek3.

Therefore a Tek3 car should at least be equal to a PPP'd one. But with the Tek3, you have the benefit of changing the map some more and gaining more performance. So it's logical to think a Tek3'd car will outperform the same car fitted with a PPP ECU.

Having personally lived with a PPP ECU for some months, I've not been that impressed. It did feel stronger, but I feel the same punch after fitting a decat system and reverting back to the std MY99 ECU.

There's certainly nothing magical or mythical about the PPP and as for re-sale value..... well we all know just how bad they've been recently and I doubt it'll stick £1600 quid onto the 2nd-hand value of your car IMHO.

Just look at those who tried to sell PPP ECU's on this board recently. All the replies pointed out the fact that a Tek2 gave better performance and was cheaper.

Stefan

T-uk

I tried a PPP ecu both on road and track(with option to buy) and was not that impressed.

I also ran a basic tek2 map for a month which felt stronger off boost and very similar on boost to the PPP ecu.

I now have a tek3 with a track map by john banks.this is specifically mapped to my car with track days in mind running safer settings for lap after lap thrashings ,this is the great thing about the tek3 as for the 1/4 mile thrashers like saxoboy,they could probably get a way with far higher boost etc than me.

I think that ecutek/john banks can offer maps via e-mail,provided the user at the other end has the delta dash software.

Neil Smalley

When I traded in my MY00 PPP'd car dealer added a grand onto the trade in price, because of the PPP. Had it had another mod on they would have taken a 1000 quid off. Therefore the PPP effectively cost me 700 quid.

The Average 'punter' takes a dim view of modified cars, unless they have official dealer/Subaru backing. Scoobynetters know that there are alternatives out there, however to the outside world these are seen as more risky, even though they may not be..

You pays you money...

ozzy

Neil,

£700, you were still done

Stefan

Scoobydick

I don't know much about this and am simply posing a question - certainly no disrespect to one of Scoobynet's most valuable contributors but....

How can a doctor from Scotland, who got into engine management systems as a hobby in the last year or so, come up with a better ECU than a big motorsport company who have prepared so many of the world's most successful Rally and Touring cars?

.............please explain

Neil Smalley

Ozzy

Not when the RRP was 1900 quid at the time. Got mine for 1700(ish) for a MY00. Dealer one off special offer.

WREXY

A Tek 2 map is more on par with the PPP but with a bit more power. A Tek 3 is a custom map. Tek 3s are all different. It depends on what mods you have as to how the ECU (Tek 3) will be mapped.

Also with the EcuTek remaps a dealer will not be able to tell it's been done unless he pulls out the select monitor and thourougly checks the map on the ECU and compares it to a stock map, which I believe is very difficult and time consuming, so you could probably quite easily get away with the warranty issue.

I can't remember who it was on here, but one of our members, who has a Tek 2, went to the dealer to see if his MAF was buggered on the select monitor. After finding it was OK they went for test drive with the dealer and the dealer said that this car felt faster than other stockers. He thought it was a lucky good one.

Cheers,

Wrexy.

john banks

No problem Scoobydick I am not offended However, if you looked at the PPP map and logged it you would see how it can be improved. Don't ask me why they advance areas of the low octane map more than the high octane map, why they use duty cycles that even on many standard cars result in overboost and poor boost control, or why they just change column headings to effectively run settings designed for a lower load at a higher load. The PPP is also very conservative with the top end boost compared to most mappers and in places runs way too much ignition timing and ends up pulling a lot back in knock correction on many cars. If you pressed me for answers on these anomalies I would say they didn't map it very well at all! It also is not optimised for a full exhaust system. However, I am quite grateful for getting the PPP - in some ways it was so poor (especially in boost control) I set about improving it first with an electronic boost controller designed from the ground up, and secondly by piggybacking the MAF and MAP sensor signals. When Ecutek came along it was just a method of putting in tables with greater resolution what I had been doing already, supported by training and considerable ground work and study on my part, as well as no inconsiderable investment.

I am afraid I have little respect for what Prodrive have done recently especially on the MY01 which is a MAP sensor remap only (read a fancy FCD). I also don't buy the reputation big man/small man argument as a reason for selecting an ECU. Maybe others do let them buy a PPP. So not only is my car much quicker and nicer to drive than it ever was with the PPP ECU (AE801 with a fuel cut lifter was better to drive), I would also recommend you drive a car I have mapped such as those owned by two well known ex-PPP aficionados on this board and ask them which they prefer, which is smoother, which has a wider power band. I am not forcing you to come and try one of my ECUs! The only reason I can see to buy a PPP is if you must keep your warranty.

[Edited by john banks - 7/16/2002 9:23:53 PM]

ChrisG

ScoSaltire,
Perhaps you could follow up on this one comparing your PPP against my TEK3?

scoobycar60

John... from personnal experience subaru engines do go bang chipped, remapped or otherwise and for many reasons, I have had the expense ...£1000,s delay and agro of rebuilding an engine without the support of a warrenty and I would not wish it on anyone. I know what you say is valid and motec,link and now Ecutek along we others offer great alternatives, in reality I prefer to accept a little less performance for peace of mind. The real point I would like to make however is that it is a real shame that Subaru and Prodrive do not respond on this board to all the comments and observations made. In a perfect world I would have hoped that any improvements you could prove to Prodrive had merit would be researched and added to future chips etc with credit and financial support being returned by them. I really dont see the point of this "us and them" war of words that seems to be popular at the moment. You are of course entitled to air your views on Prodrive but to me it all seems a bit negative and pointless. If you need to keep your warrenty intact(3 years on a new car for me please) there is only one sensible choice PPP....Without a warrenty there are loads of options........just keep a few £1000's
available for a rebuild if it all goes horribly wrong.

john banks

I responded to the question as to why I think I can do a better job than the PPP ECU. I stated my reasons - primarily I was disappointed with the PPP. If an engine lets go because of a mistake I make mapping it I will pay for it. I don't think you will find many/any aftermarket tuners who will cough up for any reason engine failure. When you consider the profit margins involved after you have spent time getting customers (and that is hard work and time consuming and you end up doing a lot of no-reward work/advice for many as a by product), and then seeing them for the map, paying license fees, purchasing equipment and software, and then in some cases seeing a customer on more occasions (especially if there are sensor problems on their car when they first see you) the net result is not at all a massive profit. In fact I would do better just being a GP all the time. So I cannot cover all reasons engine failure. If a MAF sensor goes the way some do or an injector blocks or whatever then a standard engine could let go. If you leave a good margin for fuelling, timing and boost with an appreciation of what different weather conditions will contribute and you do a nice clean map then as far as I can see a problem because of that map at a later stage is very unlikely when all the rest of the ECU's compensation maps are there to correct things. I personally am not interested in living in a warranted officially modified car having tried the sort of wares that are offered officially - they are frankly boring - the extra price pays for your warranty. It is an individual choice. I would not support the wiping out of the whole aftermarket tuning business. If it did not exist I would buy an M3 and leave it standard because every factory Subaru marketed by International Motors is frankly too tame.

scoobycar60

Please do not get me wrong, without a Subaru warranty I would not bother with PPP for all the reasons you mentioned. What I meant by engines blowing up was that they, as you say, let go for many reasons, nothing to do with ecu's The tendancy is to blame you guys (quite unfairly IMHO) to avoid full payment for an engine rebuild / replacment unit under the manufactures warranty. I for one would be very interested in paying a premium into an insurance that would cover the engine for replacement/rebuild for what ever reason along with the cost of remap hardware etc. This would pull the industry up to a more acceptable and balanced option, especially for those of us with new cars and company cars where these mods are banned. Aparently the much maligned Superchip offer this service - a yearly premium of about £40.00 now with their installations....not recommending them at all here ,just an example.

john banks

That would be good with a recognised standard of work to go with it.

Scoobydick

Good reply John Perhaps Prodrive have done bodge jobs on the PPP ECU's because they have bigger fish to fry and aren't that bothered with public customers Makes you wonder though why they choose their parameters

rich a

265bhp for a TEC3 opperating of a full decat and that's a bitty more than a PPP.


saxo boy...

my ppp'd uk300 is 277bhp and 266torque which is a bitty more than your estimate

LG John

Appologies rich. Why so much power? I thought the PPP'd UK300 was like a normal WRX with PPP just a bit more tarted up on the outside, etc? Am I wrong?

rich a

no probs saxo boy....

uk300 starts with 215bhp and 215 torque,like a standard wrx...then ppp'd added took it to 259bhp and 256 torque...i then changed prodrive exhaust for scooby sport which took it to 277 and 266

rich

T-uk

rich,

which rolling road was this done at,also do you have any figures for other cars?,especially standard ones on the same day,for us to compare.

rich a

t-uk..

it was a southern event at power engineering....

went twice, once with prodrive exhaust fitted and then after it was replaced with scoobysport...

i think all the figures for both days were listed in southern