tallsteve

Have seen a few comments now about the Impreza along the lines of:

It's not a good handling car, it's just got a shed load of grip...

I'm not too sure what would constitute "good handling" but I'm pretty sure that a decent amount of grip would be one of the factors.

I've driven some cars that I thought had excellent handling, Mk2 Golf, MX5, Citroen ZX Volcane, even my mum's KA and most of these have, in the motoring press, had good reviews on this particular aspect of the driving experience.

So, what DOES make a "good handling" car, and where are the areas (if any) that the Impreza (or in my particular case, Legacy) fall down?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

It's more of a personal thing as to what consitutes "good handling"

In my opinion it's: Predictability, controllabilty on the limit, a good balance between oversteer and understeer and drifts without snapping. Chuckabilty, Feedback and tolerance to off-camber and rough roads.

Also doesn't rattle your fillings out in the process

Grip is just one thing, there are so many other factors to put into play when making a "good handling car".

Imprezas are quite misconcieved and overrated as good handling, they aren't bad handling. But they aren't class leading either. A Nissan Primera has far better manners, just doesn't have the power or traction to expolit it.

Imprezas use very basic front suspension, no different to any other bog standard eurobox. So it's quite easy to see why it doesn't have the capacity to handle that much better than one - because it's nothing special. The difference is it has the traction and "grip". Rear suspension is somewhat better, although the rear LSD can create some instersting unpredictabilty.

Type R

To me "Feed back" is the most important thing about handling, you can have all the grip, power, gizmo's in the world if you don't know what is happening there pretty useless.

tallsteve

Hmmm.... My Citroen ZX was predictable for 98% of the time, but sudden (and unprovoked!) oversteer (hardly any liftoff) did give me cause for concern a few times! My mum's KA is brilliantly chuckable, and has great steering feedback but no power.

Think the best I've had a go in was the MX5, very direct steering, chuckable, didn't get any oversteer (wasn't trying hard enough, it wasn't mine!)

My Legacy seems to have pretty decent steering feedback, but doesn't like sudden direction changes (tends to understeer). Quite chuckable for a "bigger" car - feels similar to my old Mk2 Golf (not a GTi, a crappy 1.3!) which despite having a gutless engine seemed to have quite a lot of grip and felt "solid" as the Legacy does.

NotoriousREV

Personally, worse than the Impreza's "handling" is it's lack of steering feel, certainly compared to something like a Ka (unassisted). But I've never driven a Jap car that does have good feeling steering, either.

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

A good handling car must:

1) have good steering feed-back
2) be predictable
3) be progressive
4) not bite back

Of the front wheel drive cars that I have driven in anger the ford Ka & Puma rank highly in there

Car's with too much grip tend to let go very quickly once the grip is gone so cars with lower grip tend to be more progressive & predictable.

cheddar bob

What about DC2 ITR? lots of feedback and steering feel. Would expect a NSX to be impressive also (early ones were and new ones maybes still are unassisted?).

NotoriousREV

Wouldn't know, haven't driven one

I'm sure there are some but they're the exception rather than the rule.

Type R

Being critical with the DC2, at 45 degress or something similar you loose all feel, which can be disconserting, be it only for a split second.

Andy M3

Here is the real life difference. This morning in the pouring rain, i was queing as usual to get across a large round about and onto the dual carrigeway on the other side in my Saxo VTR (100hp). The round about goes up hill then downhill onto the duel carrigeway. I was in lane 2 looking to join lane 2. A stream of traffic in lane 3 set off and i went for it closely followed by a 04 Subaru impreza WRX, i nailed it through 1st with little wheel spin, into 2nd without lifting, onto the duel carrigeway through a tight left hander, into 3rd @ 60, seeing the scooby just make it onto the duel carrigeway (slight plough on issues going on) then into 4th, past 1 car, counted to 3 and the subaru came past at 100mph and pulling.

I would never usually have a go with a Turbo subaru, but he was trying to push me off the round about, wearing a look of "I would have gone by now if it wasn't for you holding me up", despite the fact that the traffic was too heavy to go, he persisted, so i though i would try it on, and he didn't seem too happy once he came past !!!

Point is, the impreza is a good car in the right hands, and will handle very well indeed, but there is a down side to cars with lots of weight, power and 4x4. But the up sides out weigh that lot with grip, speed, acceleration, grip, poise and FORGIVENESS !!!

Andy

John STI 8

The way it was once described to me was, until a car begins to lose grip you're talking about Road Holding, the way the car reacts past that point is handling. If this is the case, then Subarus have great road-holding, and reasonable handling. M3's on the other hand have good road-holding but excellent handling. J

ShyTot

The MX5 does. Especially the very early ones.

lem0ncurd

My definition of handling would be how a car or chasis reacts to changes in direction. Ultimately the best handling cars are lightweight ones as they have less inertia and can make sudden direction changes, such as in a series of 'switchback' bends, without getting out of shape.

The Impreza grips very well and can hold a lot of speed on a bend, but it doesn't react so well to sudden weight changes. To compensate for heavy weight transfer you need rock hard suspension and anti roll bars, but then the car can become unliveable on the road.

That's why Caterhams etc handle so well, because they have little weight transfer to deal with on corners.

My 2p.

LC

brybusa

Agreed LC

My Imprezza was a white knuckle ride flat out, walllowey and underdamped, on the brakes it squirmed and wandered about(until they went to mush after 10mins), the back of it felt like it was going to brake away on said fast direction changes or thru a switchback set of corners..Very disappointing for the £..I guess if you've come from a hot hatch you'll be happier

Guess thats why saloon production cars always get their ***'s whipped around a track by a bike , true performance straight from the crate

ianc

I had a ZX... the lift off oversteer could be used to your advantage, without patronising do you know the workings of the passive rear steer? Once loaded up and "working" if you lifted off the angle would change, hence the loss of grip... in simple terms you were careful not to lift suddenly in a corner.....

I think it's all about driver confidence in a car, The ZX I could do *most things* with and it didn't worry me, had a saxo VTR at the same time and you could do *anything* in it, simply because it had more adjustability than power. I'm pretty used to my octavia beyond the limit of grip now, but it scares me when I think about the speeds I'm doing when I "play" a little beyond the limits of grip.

bobfrog1

I totally agree, I've had a ka for some years now, even in standard trim b roads are a real laugh, anytime you want to suddenly change direction the car just does it, no major weight transfer, no "oh ****e, hang on" moments, since adding coilovers, front strut brace and a cage I can **** on 172 clio's around the twisites with the standard 60bhp

FrenchBoy

I'd agree with that.

The scoob doesnt really do any of those things very well. As already mentioned, what it does do is hold the road at speeds where other cars would be launching you into the nearest tree. Therefore making you feel like a hero - when in fact all you've really done is put your foot down and hold on!

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - just not particularly rewarding for a driver.
It can still be a lot of fun though.

NotoriousREV

Can I borrow you Ka for a weekend? It sounds like a right laugh!

tallsteve

Yeah, I did use the passive rear steer - and actually quite enjoyed it! To be fair the ZX only bit me on 3 times. One was massive understeer (my fault!) but the other two were low speed (<30mph) and very little, if any lifting on the throttle.. Possibly other road conditions contributed. As a car, and in terms of handling I actually prefered it (in some respects) to my Legacy.

As far as VTR's go - my mate had one and liked the handling. Got it modded and then took me and my brother out for a blat around some country lanes. Only problem was greasy roads and very little play in the suspension (plus loony speeds) resulted in car and occupants doing rally style flips into a ditch. Lucky to get out of that one alive...

SiPie

Spot on

I hate to say this but my 1.8 Focus Zetec has a chassis to die for and this was bought ( reluctantly ) straight after owning an MY99 uk impreza for 2 years with bumpsteer, spot on geometry, prodrive springs etc etc..

The impreza is saved by a good 4WD system, but it's chassis just ain't the best IMHO.