ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Bit of tricky one this. But to be blunt I'm pretty peeved off about it (I should have googled harder). But in short, I bought a hot water cylinder from a manufactuer (who also make their own cylinders). Now it turns out this particular line of cylinders in not made by them, but by another company. Who also sell to the public/trade under their own brand.

Basically this cylinder is someone else's cylinder with a differnt sticker on it. Everything is the same, from the controls pack and valves to the dimensions and pipe locations. Its specifications, installer manual/instructions are a cut and paste from the original manufacturer, therefore identical.

Now the problem here is this rebranded cylinder cost me £500 MORE than the same cylinder made by the original manufacture That's almost twice as much as the same cylinder branded by its original manufacturer.

To add insult to injury when a part failed, the customer support was abysmal: Appointment made; nobody showed up, then when enquired was "on the way to take a look"...when question about taking a "look" it turns out they didn't have the replacement part. Meaning I'd have to waste another day sitting in the houses for someone who may/maynot show up and couldn't fix it as they didn't have the replacement part.

So the extra £500 doesn't even pay for any quality of customer support.

I happened to have the phone number of the manufacturer's sales rep who I original had visit me and is teh person who specified the cylinder. He gave me some bullsh*t about compatibility with a four pipe system boiler and the manufacturer's boiler controls (the other cylinder does that too which I've since proven this).

So I was wondering where could I go with this? Is there any legal legislation in regards of fair pricing?

I know I'm at a disadvantage for not being savvy, but basically I want either all my money back and they can have the cylinder back, or a partial refund to roughly what the cylinder is actually worth if it had its original branding.

Any ideas guys?

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I think you've got a good case under the Consumer Protection Act. I would talk to trading standards or perhaps have a word with whomever supplied the boiler.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

It's like Skoda and VW/Audi. Same cars but one gets all the toys and costs less.
But try getting any sense if you take it to the opposing garage.

It does sound like someone slipped you a crippler but it does seem the law is on your side.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

A product has to be of merchantable quality and fit for its intended purpose, but there's no rule that says it has to sell for a similar price to alternatives. It's up to the seller to set a price, and it's up to the buyer to decide whether or not to purchase the product at that price. You chose to make the purchase, and it's really nobody else's responsibility if you didn't shop around to get the best deal.

I think you need to just take this one on the chin and make a mental note to spend more time shopping around in future if you want the best deal - sorry.

dnc

I don't know the relevant laws but the above echoes my thoughts exactly, sorry. Don't see how there can be any recourse for you.

David Lock

I don't think you have a snowball's Ali, sorry to say. And, of course, you are only assuming that repair service from original manufacturer would have been any better. Customer service is a dirty word these days

dl

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Cheers guys. So you think its worth persuing?

I thinks ita little different to VW/Audi, as the cylinders are identical in every way bar a sticker. Probably a better comparison is a Fiat Scudo/Peugeot Expert...but they are often priced similarly.

The whole reasoning for going for this brand of cylinder is becuase I was going to have the same brand boiler and its bells and whistles compensating heating controls which by all accounts is very good, so I let the sales rep spec it all up to suit. Currently I'm temporarily making do with the existing Worc's-Bosch until the extension/building work gets under way as it will require a bigger boiler, but after the poor response from this bunch, to just replace a faulty cylinder thermostat, I think I'll stick with a Worcs-Bosch and opt for using Honeywell controls instead (it wouldn't matter if the Worcester tank was made by someone else as its still cheaper than what I have and they have superb customer support).

The price of the tank isn't too far from that of a megaflo (£100 more than a megaflo), so it is priced to the market, albeit at the top end of it; With the same tank with a differet sticker being priced over £500 cheaper (£640 to be precise once VAT is taken into account) and is priced at the bottom end of the market. I'm left thinking why? What rational justification can they have for this kind of mark-up?


Obviously I'm not naming names yet, Just incase, as I want them to give them a chance to make good the situation.

David Lock

On what grounds??

A call to Trading Standards will clarify the position. Good luck btw.

dl

Maz

iTrader: (34)

The Consumer Protection Act is there to protect us as customers. It's quite a convoluted piece of legislation ( aren't they all?!) but it does offer protection from unscrupulous practices. As above a quick email or call to Trading Standards should clarify your legal standpoint.

Boro

iTrader: (1)

I think you'll be lucky to get anywhere with it but I hope I'm wrong.

We bought what we thought was a high end microwave a few years back only to find out it was a cheap and chearful chinese one which they had licensed their name to.

Luckily it blew up and we got a refund.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

All the seller of the boiler does is "offer to chaffer"........he can put any price he likes on it, he can even sell it for 1 pence if he wants to.

No way out from that standpoint unless he has used some type of fraudulent activity to gain a pecuniary advantage.

Shaun

CharlySkunkWeed

iTrader: (7)

In work we use loads of different light fittings that are exactly the same but with a different sticker on them (sometimes only on the outside , all the original branding inside) but its usually the other way around , they are cheaper than the original. As you say though , you probably should've done a bit more research before buying.

Am I correct in saying you (literally) paid extra JUST for the name

Boro

iTrader: (1)

Maybe it should be "faulty" ;-)

Did you buy it online?

PaulC72

i don't think you will get anywhere, do they sell it under licence from the original manufacturer? I would guess they do otherwise there is another can of worms to be opened about selling goods that are not yours etc a bit like buying a nike shirt and selling it under your own brand (unless you have an agreement to do so)

My guess they may have permission to sell it under their own branding or buy from the same main supplier?

As far as pricing goes they can sell at whatever price they want, its up to the consumer to decide if the price is fair before they purchase it.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Kind of; This particular cylinder was purchased as it was asserted to me by the sales rep (who works for the same company) as it would work best in regards to the control/boiler package I was going to buy, saying this setup would negate the need for extra valves and stuffand still comply with building regs (G3 IIRC - which it does, but the benefit to me on that is minimal, it mearly means a few less wires).


I say "going to buy a boiler", as I doubt that I'll go ahead and buy a boiler off them seeing that I feel like I've beem ripped me off to the tune £500+ and given shoddy customer service. Who knows, it maybe a rebranded boiler too also with inflated pricetag! (they aren't...I've checked now )

The thing is their other slightly higher performance superior cylinder range, is made by them in-housee and is only a slightly more expensive. Leading me to belive I've been sold the lower-market model as there is more profit in it for them; This model cylinder is only sold in the UK (its made in the UK) - its not listed on the websites for any other countries in which the company operates in. I belived I was getting the upper market model anyway as thats all their brochure and website shows in the pictures; That is what started my suspicions to be honest as the cylinder I had was very different to those in the brochure. In hindsight I should have rejected the cylinder when it was delivered, as ashetically it does look a bit naff when compared to the posher model, but pressure of deadlines made me push on. Big mistake.

I need to piece together an action list of points to put to them, and maybe trading standards. I think the only thing trading standards maybe interested in is the possibility that the sales rep intentionally misled me - I need to dig those brochures out, as it does feel like I've been served up a "bait and switch" tactic.

Nope; it was ordered in by a local supplier, based on the spec/part numbers the rep had given. There was no mark-up by the supplier (they already made their money off me in pipes, rads and sundries).

Faulty? not yet.

Well, time will tell; My confidence in it being a quality product is not great (ignoring the faulty stat); It has on the odd occasion made a disconcerting thumping sound when someone turned on a hot tap (not water hammer - more like a expansion/contraction noise ), and searching google with its native manufacturer's name does reveal it has a habit of this getting worse (something to do with the steal tank becoming detached from the insulation). Glad its loacted in the garage and not the airing cupboard, as it would have been intolerable. And to top it off there is a intermittent vibration from one of the flow pipes from the boiler where it attaches to the cylinder coil - but I think that maybe a plumbing issue moreso than the tank.

The problem is getting their repairmen out to look at it. They've already messed me about once with failing to show up.

Thats my crux; paying over the odds is one thing, but paying over the odds for something that is poorer (in quality and customer service) than a equal or even cheaper competitor is a real kick in the nuts.

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

I think you might possibly have a valid claim under the "Consumer protection from unfair trading regulations act 2008". There is a new draft amendment titled "Misleading and aggressive commercial practices" that might cover you in your case.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Cheers; I just flicked through the brochure whilst gorging on some cheesy wotsits, and whilst it is listed in the text, there is no picture of this model cylinder, only the model above which is the dogs danglies (well for a hot water cylinder).

I need to dig out the quotes just to double check what was exactly written.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Aggressive practice is usually to stop pikey roofers charging 15 grand to change an old dear's roof tile............

Shaun

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Well, one month on. There is progress, in that there is a dialogue. Better and more open to my issues than the brush off I had from their salesman.

Their main concern is there has been a pricing error with the supplier, and I have been sold the cylinder at the wrong price - this is under investigation. Whilst I can appeciate that, it doesn't explain their retail prices, which I still paid less than and is still more than double the price of the same cylinder branded by its original manufacturer. But I'm fully appreciative that retail prices aren't always adhered to - for example nobody ever pays full retail price for a sofa from DFS.

I've also confirmed in writing with the original maker the make and model and it is made and rebranded for xxx company. The original statement that it is made to xxx maker's specifcation was not true. It is a rebranded cylinder (as I originally said but was told otherwise).

In the meantime the replacement cylinder stat has gone faulty (again). Which in part helps toward explaining my £980 gas bill for last quarter! Yeah..my multimeter reported that the hot wat was held at 78C degrees (boiler is set to 80 degrees, so thats as hot as the water would get).

I am now booked for some of their engineers to take a visit and look over the installation to evaluate why I'm not happy - why I run out of hot water after two showers even when the central heating is set to off, so the boiler is purely heating the hot water (all control valves working as they should - they are all brand new), and why it thumps/sudder for no reason. Also to evaluate if I been sold the wrong type of cylinder for the application. On paper, I agree it is the right size cylinder, but maybe I'm just spending too long in the shower LOL.

My gripe is the recovery rate/heat up-time IMHO is inferior, as the cylinder only has a 24kw coil. If I had a 35kw coil in the tank I could sustain about 10litres a minute hot water draw indefinetly without running out of hot water without the need for immersion heaters (as the boiler will heat the water as fast as it is consumed). I wish I worked all this out myself instead of relying on the salesman to spec it up.

I've since talked to other independant heating engineers who have agreed with this and stated that I should have a cylinder with a higher capacity heat exchanger or a twin coil (solar) cylinder with both coils heated by the boiler which would ultimately achieve the same goal (faster re-heat times).

What has thrown a spanner in the works is that the manufacturer has offered to upgrade my cylinder to their better model free of charge IF I buy their new boiler. Its something I didn't expect, so quite supirsed. Its a humble acknowledgement that they know I'm not happy and want to assist. However I'm hesitant, as my decision on this balances on if their engineers stick to their promises to turn up, equipped with parts. Because if they don't, there's no point me buying their boiler if they give poor service support to fix it when it goes wrong.

Part of me just want to ebay the cylinder and I'll buy a Worcester Greenstore instead which has the best re-heat times on the market (39kw coil - wish I knew that last year ). Unless somebody else makes the same Greenstore cylinder and sells it cheaper

The saga continues ......

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like you have been British Gassed to me...

Typical....

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

No its not BG this time. But I think they have done similar in the past.


They used to re-brand Pottertons if I recall correctly.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Nope, Worcester's exact boiler just take the badge off and put a ****ty BG one on instead and charge a few hundred more. I cant see you getting anywhere with this, as you weren't forced into buying it,

Worcesters are great boilers or cylinders, I dont see why you would fit one, any number of boilers come with a 10yr warranty now for half the price

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Oh so BG rebrand Worcester now LOL? Which are also rebadged by various brands in Europe too. A step up from the old rebadged Pottertons at least.

Anyway this about a being sold a cylinder. Not the boiler - you'd think a cylinder is a cylinder, get told the required capacity/model by the salesman, job done. How wrong was I?

Being forced and misled are two different things; I still feel I was baited and switched. The offer of the better cylinder supports the hypothesis that I was misled or/and sold the wrong product for the application/customer specification; The better model cylinder has better insulation and a higher output coil. I know this now I've dug through loads of .pdf documents, I didn't realise back then; The brochures provided to me at the time didn't show this.

Thus far I have;

a)The brochure only really details the better model cylinder. Not the one I was sold.
b)The specification was advised by the representative employed by the manufacturer after a visit and inspection of the property and conversation with myself of my requirements
c) The cylinder "may" have been incorrectly priced by the supplier (to be confirmed)
d) There is a reliability issue with the supplied thermostat (supplied with the cylinder)
e) Their service support has messed me about by firstly not turning up on the appointed date and not being equipped with the replacment part even when being told and acknowledging what was at fault.
f) The cylinder makes strange noises (even when the water temperature is correct)- to be investigated.
g) The cylinder struggles to meet the hot water demand that was clearly outlined at the time of the representative's visit. Despite controls set for hot water only - to be investigated (I suspect insuffcient heat exchanger coil capacity, as its only 24kw).

So it looks like I'm either going down the not fit for purpose route, or being incorrectly advised by their representative to buy the wrong product.