Gibraltar
20 May 2002, 06:07 PM
#1
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controversial topic discussion time... 
News item Here.
Personally, I don't see what can be changed. If the residents don't want to have joint ownership then let it stay British.
But then again, it wouldn't be the first time politicians had gone back on their word 
News item Here.
Personally, I don't see what can be changed. If the residents don't want to have joint ownership then let it stay British.
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw ruled out any agreement on joint sovereignty without the consent of Gibraltarians in a referendum.
"That was a solemn undertaking given in 1969 to the people of Gibraltar - we absolutely stand by it," he said.
"That was a solemn undertaking given in 1969 to the people of Gibraltar - we absolutely stand by it," he said.
20 May 2002, 06:31 PM
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If the English Queen wants to hang on to a rock with monkeys on it, that is clearly as British as the rather more convenient Isle of Wight, then the least we could do is respect her wishes - it is her Jubilee year after all.
MONKEYS (BRITISH BABOON MONKEYS) YES; SPAIN NO WAY JOSE!
Hang on to yer MONKEYS countrymen!
D
(we should give back those tea leafed bloody marbles to Greece though)
MONKEYS (BRITISH BABOON MONKEYS) YES; SPAIN NO WAY JOSE!
Hang on to yer MONKEYS countrymen!
D
(we should give back those tea leafed bloody marbles to Greece though)
20 May 2002, 06:37 PM
#3
Pontificating
I have colleagues in Gibraltar and they are going beserk about this, the entire island held a mass demo last week and they have been e-mailing all ex pat cities around the world to gather support, they feel really let down by the British Government, hopefully this will cheer them up, but you know what this government is like for saying you will have a referendum were still awaiting the european referendum 5 years later.
Keep it British
Dave
were still awaiting the european referendum 5 years later.Keep it British
Dave
20 May 2002, 07:04 PM
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Been to Gibralter a few times and it isn't just a rock with Monkeys on. Its a rock with monkeys on that steal things out your pockets!!
but seriously, i haven't heard anything about this. whats the whole topic about?
I'd vote keep it british. Britain wants to keep hold of it, Spain wants to get their hands on it. What do the people living their want? Surely thats an important issue.
[Edited by Hos - 5/20/2002 7:07:36 PM]
but seriously, i haven't heard anything about this. whats the whole topic about?
I'd vote keep it british. Britain wants to keep hold of it, Spain wants to get their hands on it. What do the people living their want? Surely thats an important issue.
[Edited by Hos - 5/20/2002 7:07:36 PM]
21 May 2002, 10:43 AM
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I was in Gib in '67 when the referendum was held - the vote (from memory) was something like 12,138 to stay British and 4 to join Spain.
Probably due to the fact that a lot of the population were /are refugees from Franco's Fascist Spain.
About 4 months after the referendum some businessman from Gib went to Madrid to talk to the Spanish government to try to get the Spanish/Gib border re-opened. The businessmen were featured on the Spanish TV news that evening and the next day their businesses in Gib got trashed (buses overturned, shops ransacked and looted, etc).
A police inspector tried to stop the demonstrators in the Main Square by chucking a tear gas grenade in their general direction - unfortunately he forgot to check wind direction and none of his fellow officers were wearing gas masks; what would be called today, an 'own goal'.
Mind, I wonder if a solution to the Gib problem is the same as some-one suggested for the Falklands. Sell the place back to the country claiming sovereignty and then the UK lease it back for 999 years.
Honour satisfied all round?
Just a thought .....
[Edited by philc - 5/21/2002 7:04:15 PM]
Probably due to the fact that a lot of the population were /are refugees from Franco's Fascist Spain.
About 4 months after the referendum some businessman from Gib went to Madrid to talk to the Spanish government to try to get the Spanish/Gib border re-opened. The businessmen were featured on the Spanish TV news that evening and the next day their businesses in Gib got trashed (buses overturned, shops ransacked and looted, etc).
A police inspector tried to stop the demonstrators in the Main Square by chucking a tear gas grenade in their general direction - unfortunately he forgot to check wind direction and none of his fellow officers were wearing gas masks; what would be called today, an 'own goal'.
Mind, I wonder if a solution to the Gib problem is the same as some-one suggested for the Falklands. Sell the place back to the country claiming sovereignty and then the UK lease it back for 999 years.
Honour satisfied all round?
Just a thought .....
[Edited by philc - 5/21/2002 7:04:15 PM]
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21 May 2002, 11:02 AM
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I don't think that would satisfy the Gibraltarians...
Some info from the http://www.gibraltar.gi/history/ web page...
a referendum was held at which the people of Gibraltar were asked whether they wanted to remain British or be handed over to Spain. Over 12,000 people voted for Britain, with only 44 choosing the Spanish option.
It was formally ceded by Spain to Britain under Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713.
21 May 2002, 07:00 PM
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Just WHY are Jack Straw and Tony Blair talking to the Spanish government in the first place???? It stinks of dirty tricks behind your back [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Surely Spain should be negotiating with the Gibraltarian Government - after all, they run the "country"!!
What i can see will happen is a "deal will be struck" by Blair, subject of course to a referendum - but then the pressure will come. Tony will introduce a 5000% tax on all travel to Gibraltar; The military base will do noisey testing at night; Spain will jam mobile phones from the mainland - all kind of pressure to make the locals vote for Spain (or leave in dispair!).
Similar tricks are also probably being planned for the UK joining the Euro - so beware of the men in number 10
mb
Surely Spain should be negotiating with the Gibraltarian Government - after all, they run the "country"!!
What i can see will happen is a "deal will be struck" by Blair, subject of course to a referendum - but then the pressure will come. Tony will introduce a 5000% tax on all travel to Gibraltar; The military base will do noisey testing at night; Spain will jam mobile phones from the mainland - all kind of pressure to make the locals vote for Spain (or leave in dispair!).
Similar tricks are also probably being planned for the UK joining the Euro - so beware of the men in number 10
mb
21 May 2002, 07:10 PM
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oh, and I've just remembered - in 1967 if you crossed the straits of Gibraltar and landed on the Moroccan coast, there's a town called Ceuta - owned and occupied by the Spanish. Travel further up the Moroccan coast to a town called ?Melilla - also owned and garrisoned by the Spanish.
So the Spanish can't claim the moral high ground ...
So the Spanish can't claim the moral high ground ...
22 May 2002, 10:05 AM
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Look....if they say nothing will be agreed unless through a referendum the people living there want out, nothing will change.
Well....being a betting man I would say that that is pretty safe bet in the english favour - would you not?
Its the same for the euro/europe thing.....if we had a countrywide referendum how likely do you think the majority of the public will vote 'hey - good idea! lets all join europe and lose all of our national identity, money, rights etc etc' - err....none?
[disclamier]All IMHO of course[\disclaimer]
Well....being a betting man I would say that that is pretty safe bet in the english favour - would you not?
Its the same for the euro/europe thing.....if we had a countrywide referendum how likely do you think the majority of the public will vote 'hey - good idea! lets all join europe and lose all of our national identity, money, rights etc etc' - err....none?
[disclamier]All IMHO of course[\disclaimer]
22 May 2002, 12:28 PM
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Tony would probaly give the Falklands back as well. The man is power crazy.
The Spanish gave up their right to Gibralter, they should stop complaining.
The Spanish gave up their right to Gibralter, they should stop complaining.
22 May 2002, 01:14 PM
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I can imagine the comments if the Spanish were trying to hold on to Lands Ends and Lizard Point peninsulars!
It's not as if we are holding onto an island, it's part of Spain!
I do sympathise with the residents though, and as previously mentioned, Spain hold parts of Morocco. There's no harm in entering into negotiations though
Geezer
It's not as if we are holding onto an island, it's part of Spain!
I do sympathise with the residents though, and as previously mentioned, Spain hold parts of Morocco. There's no harm in entering into negotiations though
Geezer
22 May 2002, 01:26 PM
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it's part of Spain!
[Edited by Nimbus - 5/22/2002 1:27:13 PM]
22 May 2002, 01:42 PM
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True enough, as most of continental Europe shows, but Portugal and Spain have been different nations for a long time, with different languages etc. We nicked Gibraltar from the Spanish, which puts a slightly different perspective on it.
Geezer
Geezer
22 May 2002, 02:13 PM
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When in history did all the countries in the world decide that all land borders were fixed and final? Five hundred years ago? One hundred? Ten? Five minutes?
It's ours because we took it. Whether we took it legally or not (*cough* Turkey *cough* Cyprus *cough*) is irrelevant, it's ours now. Tony wants to give it back to show that we are good Europeans. Apparently allowing the Spanish to steal all of our fish and take our money (via the EU) isn't enough.
As a UNITED Kingdom we are big enough to fight for this, but as a small set of "empowered devoluted" regions we are not. Welcome to the brave new world. It's a good thing that the Channel separates us from the rest of them. You wait until the first EU Civil War starts!
It's ours because we took it. Whether we took it legally or not (*cough* Turkey *cough* Cyprus *cough*) is irrelevant, it's ours now. Tony wants to give it back to show that we are good Europeans. Apparently allowing the Spanish to steal all of our fish and take our money (via the EU) isn't enough.
As a UNITED Kingdom we are big enough to fight for this, but as a small set of "empowered devoluted" regions we are not. Welcome to the brave new world. It's a good thing that the Channel separates us from the rest of them. You wait until the first EU Civil War starts!
22 May 2002, 02:16 PM
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Tony wants to give it back because he
a) dosen't give a **** about the people
b) wants to save money, so he can spend it on his pathetic attempt to run this country.
Same applies to the Falklands.
David
a) dosen't give a **** about the people
b) wants to save money, so he can spend it on his pathetic attempt to run this country.
Same applies to the Falklands.
David
22 May 2002, 02:17 PM
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The Italians won't be able to switch sides fast enough and the French will role over and then claim they struggled on using resistance fighters.
This of course is humour... not to be taken seriously!
This of course is humour... not to be taken seriously!
22 May 2002, 02:38 PM
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The past is full of many mistakes and the world was a different place when the Ultrecht treaty was signed - both Spain and England were Imperialistic powers then. They have both since 'grown up' and realised that Imperialism is no way to treat people, with the strong preying on the weak. Doesn't sit easy on my conscience...
So stop banging the Union drum here, and maybe use geography as your logic, rather than perpetuating an imperialistic and anachronistic tradition.
England has been good enough to give many many countries back - why hang on to some if the principle of 'doing the right thing' is the same.
Anyone who thinks losing blood over an irrelevant anomaly of a geographic possession (similar to Malvinas/Falklands) is misguided. Protect your homeland with your blood, not your past misdemeanours.
The islanders will be fine if it ends up Spanish - they will not send them up chimneys, or make them all work in Starbucks. They will even get a legal-right 40 winks in the afternoon!
The world mood is different and Senor Blair has got it right as I see it. Now about Northern Ireland - what we should do is...ohh Christ, lets not go there!
So stop banging the Union drum here, and maybe use geography as your logic, rather than perpetuating an imperialistic and anachronistic tradition.
England has been good enough to give many many countries back - why hang on to some if the principle of 'doing the right thing' is the same.
Anyone who thinks losing blood over an irrelevant anomaly of a geographic possession (similar to Malvinas/Falklands) is misguided. Protect your homeland with your blood, not your past misdemeanours.
The islanders will be fine if it ends up Spanish - they will not send them up chimneys, or make them all work in Starbucks. They will even get a legal-right 40 winks in the afternoon!
The world mood is different and Senor Blair has got it right as I see it. Now about Northern Ireland - what we should do is...ohh Christ, lets not go there!
22 May 2002, 04:18 PM
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Diesel,
Well put. Just because we took something a long time ago does not make it right to keep it.
Next thing you know we'll be advocating the return of the Empire!
Geezer
Well put. Just because we took something a long time ago does not make it right to keep it.
Next thing you know we'll be advocating the return of the Empire!
Geezer
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