do greeks live in the real world
05 October 2011, 10:52 AM
#1
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do greeks live in the real world
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15177457
not sure why they think striking will make a difference other than making it worse?
they have only got themselves to blame for being in the poo.
when there country goes under, and they all suddenly have no money rather than less money, they will be the first to complain and beg for help.
not sure why they think striking will make a difference other than making it worse?
they have only got themselves to blame for being in the poo.
when there country goes under, and they all suddenly have no money rather than less money, they will be the first to complain and beg for help.
05 October 2011, 10:59 AM
#2
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I think it's their governments fault tidgypud letting it get this bad then chucking loads of taxes at it's citizens.
Last edited by specialx; 05 October 2011 at 11:09 AM. Reason: punctuation!
05 October 2011, 11:39 AM
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I'm all strapped in for all the threads with General Strike in the title that will be appearing next month. And my question will be the same - will that really help??
Welcome to the new world order. No new cars and bigger houses year on year. Will come as a bit of a shock for many. But there's always the banks to blame, so that's ok.
Welcome to the new world order. No new cars and bigger houses year on year. Will come as a bit of a shock for many. But there's always the banks to blame, so that's ok.
05 October 2011, 11:50 AM
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Now would be a good time to get to grips with "their", Jef 
Greece was an accident waiting to happen. Taxes have been almost optional for years. Shipping magnates have been able to live there officially tax-free. The list goes on. Shambles.
For Greeks, a properly run ecomony will come as an even bigger return to reality than the population in the likes of Spain, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Ireland, even the UK.
Greece was an accident waiting to happen. Taxes have been almost optional for years. Shipping magnates have been able to live there officially tax-free. The list goes on. Shambles.
For Greeks, a properly run ecomony will come as an even bigger return to reality than the population in the likes of Spain, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Ireland, even the UK.
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05 October 2011, 11:58 AM
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05 October 2011, 12:00 PM
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haha
i see. how come our banks, funded this? or got involved, or industry relations were able to continue? when it mustve been known for many ,many years it was unsustainable - not a single person picked it up?
telboy - its always going to be "there" for me - its the only spelling i accept lol
i see. how come our banks, funded this? or got involved, or industry relations were able to continue? when it mustve been known for many ,many years it was unsustainable - not a single person picked it up?
telboy - its always going to be "there" for me - its the only spelling i accept lol
05 October 2011, 12:06 PM
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There looking at there car over there 
C'mon, try it just once
They're looking at their car over there. Easy. 
Greece has funded this by borrowing and borrowing and borrowing. They kidded the EU that the debt was sustainable, when in reality they were ushered into the EU dream without proper scrutiny. They must have had a few beers that night.
Now the money has run out, and they cannot repay their loans. It's just a question of whether the holders of that debt are told "unlucky, son" or whether the EU dream is kept alive by the likes of Mr and Mrs Chermann funding it for who knows how long. Big mess.
C'mon, try it just once
They're looking at their car over there. Easy. Greece has funded this by borrowing and borrowing and borrowing. They kidded the EU that the debt was sustainable, when in reality they were ushered into the EU dream without proper scrutiny. They must have had a few beers that night.
Now the money has run out, and they cannot repay their loans. It's just a question of whether the holders of that debt are told "unlucky, son" or whether the EU dream is kept alive by the likes of Mr and Mrs Chermann funding it for who knows how long. Big mess.
05 October 2011, 12:10 PM
#12
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tbh i think everyone has to take some blame, banks are what started the crash, but as a society we are all to blame. banks allowed people to borrow more than they could afford, governments spent more than they could afford and we all expected to borrow more than we could afford.
its very easy to say it wont happen to us when things are going well, so people spend spend spend.
sounds like the greeks have let there high tax payers get away with not paying tax for donkeys years which wont help in the slightest.
05 October 2011, 12:15 PM
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agree tidgy,
and tel they "kidded" the EU? thats the mightly European Union!
surley someone , somewhere must have had an idea?
my opinion, many many people did, but stood to make massive amounts of money to ignore it.
their - i said it! ironic haha
and tel they "kidded" the EU? thats the mightly European Union!
surley someone , somewhere must have had an idea?
my opinion, many many people did, but stood to make massive amounts of money to ignore it.
their - i said it! ironic haha
05 October 2011, 12:26 PM
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Oh they had an idea alright, but to join the EU, Greece just had to meet certain criteria. There was no discussion about cashflow, future projections of income vs spending or anything like it. On the specific day it mattered, their debt to GDP ratio was "acceptable", and in they went. It just goes to show that political ideology is rarely if ever the best method of determining economic policy. New Labour can vouch for that.
05 October 2011, 12:40 PM
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i see tel
its total corrupt bullsh*t, from the very top, down
political and economical analysts msutve have easily seen this at the time, but were no doubt ridiculed, or silenced.
a select few gey very very very rich, and every other **** pays for it. and its legal lol
what a fcking world.
its total corrupt bullsh*t, from the very top, down
political and economical analysts msutve have easily seen this at the time, but were no doubt ridiculed, or silenced.
a select few gey very very very rich, and every other **** pays for it. and its legal lol
what a fcking world.
05 October 2011, 12:47 PM
#17
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i see tel
its total corrupt bullsh*t, from the very top, down
political and economical analysts msutve have easily seen this at the time, but were no doubt ridiculed, or silenced.
a select few gey very very very rich, and every other **** pays for it. and its legal lol
what a fcking world.
its total corrupt bullsh*t, from the very top, down
political and economical analysts msutve have easily seen this at the time, but were no doubt ridiculed, or silenced.
a select few gey very very very rich, and every other **** pays for it. and its legal lol
what a fcking world.
When everyone is singing the same tune and critical thinking is optional, you have to question the value of this 'education'.
05 October 2011, 06:59 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15177457
not sure why they think striking will make a difference other than making it worse?
they have only got themselves to blame for being in the poo.
when there country goes under, and they all suddenly have no money rather than less money, they will be the first to complain and beg for help.
not sure why they think striking will make a difference other than making it worse?
they have only got themselves to blame for being in the poo.
when there country goes under, and they all suddenly have no money rather than less money, they will be the first to complain and beg for help.
05 October 2011, 07:04 PM
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I have issues with the public sector specifically, but the general idea of protesting the wealth transfer we have been forced to accept...well don't see what is wrong with that?
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 05 October 2011 at 07:16 PM.
05 October 2011, 08:29 PM
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What wealth transfer? There have always been stratas of wealth in society. Not many working class now as the overall standard of living has increased so much but in reality that's in part been achieved by over-spending by governments for years (the UK as an example has spent more than it's tax take for 19 out of the last 20 years).
It's easy (but wrong) to blame 'the banks'. This is a mass market problem where borrowing was encouraged and everyone thinks they're owed a better standard of living without necessarily studying or working to achieve it. Combine that with governments of all hues who want to spend to make themselves popular to win votes and it's a dangerous downward spiral that leads to the inevitable boom and bust.
Striking doesn't help - why should the private sector keep paying for the excesses of the public sector? The private sector lost most of its defined benefit pensions years ago, and has been forced to be efficient in ways that the public sector doesn't understand, let alone ever worry about.
But, as has been said, when your future's fecked whatever happens, you've nothing to lose by protesting. There's no obvious way out of this for Greece. Defaulting doesn't solve their negative P&L - the only way to solve it is like any turnaround situation - a mixture of investment and cost cutting. Who's going to invest?
Gordo
p.s. My comment on the banks is as follows: investment banks in the US mis-sold sub-prime mortgage packages (effectively dressing high risk debt as low risk). Lots of our pension funds and retail banks bought these directly or indirectly as part of sensible AAA rated investment strategies. They all got burnt which catalysed the problems in 2008 but all of that was merely a backdrop to the horrific levels of debt which still haven't been solved. It's pathetic of governments to blame the banks but it's been a useful distraction tool from their own fundamental economic mismanagement, just as they've done the slight of hand of talking about 'deficit' instead of debt. It's now all coming home to bite.
It's easy (but wrong) to blame 'the banks'. This is a mass market problem where borrowing was encouraged and everyone thinks they're owed a better standard of living without necessarily studying or working to achieve it. Combine that with governments of all hues who want to spend to make themselves popular to win votes and it's a dangerous downward spiral that leads to the inevitable boom and bust.
Striking doesn't help - why should the private sector keep paying for the excesses of the public sector? The private sector lost most of its defined benefit pensions years ago, and has been forced to be efficient in ways that the public sector doesn't understand, let alone ever worry about.
But, as has been said, when your future's fecked whatever happens, you've nothing to lose by protesting. There's no obvious way out of this for Greece. Defaulting doesn't solve their negative P&L - the only way to solve it is like any turnaround situation - a mixture of investment and cost cutting. Who's going to invest?
Gordo
p.s. My comment on the banks is as follows: investment banks in the US mis-sold sub-prime mortgage packages (effectively dressing high risk debt as low risk). Lots of our pension funds and retail banks bought these directly or indirectly as part of sensible AAA rated investment strategies. They all got burnt which catalysed the problems in 2008 but all of that was merely a backdrop to the horrific levels of debt which still haven't been solved. It's pathetic of governments to blame the banks but it's been a useful distraction tool from their own fundamental economic mismanagement, just as they've done the slight of hand of talking about 'deficit' instead of debt. It's now all coming home to bite.
05 October 2011, 11:23 PM
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What wealth transfer? There have always been stratas of wealth in society. Not many working class now as the overall standard of living has increased so much but in reality that's in part been achieved by over-spending by governments for years (the UK as an example has spent more than it's tax take for 19 out of the last 20 years).
It's easy (but wrong) to blame 'the banks'. This is a mass market problem where borrowing was encouraged and everyone thinks they're owed a better standard of living without necessarily studying or working to achieve it. Combine that with governments of all hues who want to spend to make themselves popular to win votes and it's a dangerous downward spiral that leads to the inevitable boom and bust.
Striking doesn't help - why should the private sector keep paying for the excesses of the public sector? The private sector lost most of its defined benefit pensions years ago, and has been forced to be efficient in ways that the public sector doesn't understand, let alone ever worry about.
But, as has been said, when your future's fecked whatever happens, you've nothing to lose by protesting. There's no obvious way out of this for Greece. Defaulting doesn't solve their negative P&L - the only way to solve it is like any turnaround situation - a mixture of investment and cost cutting. Who's going to invest?
Gordo
p.s. My comment on the banks is as follows: investment banks in the US mis-sold sub-prime mortgage packages (effectively dressing high risk debt as low risk). Lots of our pension funds and retail banks bought these directly or indirectly as part of sensible AAA rated investment strategies. They all got burnt which catalysed the problems in 2008 but all of that was merely a backdrop to the horrific levels of debt which still haven't been solved. It's pathetic of governments to blame the banks but it's been a useful distraction tool from their own fundamental economic mismanagement, just as they've done the slight of hand of talking about 'deficit' instead of debt. It's now all coming home to bite.
It's easy (but wrong) to blame 'the banks'. This is a mass market problem where borrowing was encouraged and everyone thinks they're owed a better standard of living without necessarily studying or working to achieve it. Combine that with governments of all hues who want to spend to make themselves popular to win votes and it's a dangerous downward spiral that leads to the inevitable boom and bust.
Striking doesn't help - why should the private sector keep paying for the excesses of the public sector? The private sector lost most of its defined benefit pensions years ago, and has been forced to be efficient in ways that the public sector doesn't understand, let alone ever worry about.
But, as has been said, when your future's fecked whatever happens, you've nothing to lose by protesting. There's no obvious way out of this for Greece. Defaulting doesn't solve their negative P&L - the only way to solve it is like any turnaround situation - a mixture of investment and cost cutting. Who's going to invest?
Gordo
p.s. My comment on the banks is as follows: investment banks in the US mis-sold sub-prime mortgage packages (effectively dressing high risk debt as low risk). Lots of our pension funds and retail banks bought these directly or indirectly as part of sensible AAA rated investment strategies. They all got burnt which catalysed the problems in 2008 but all of that was merely a backdrop to the horrific levels of debt which still haven't been solved. It's pathetic of governments to blame the banks but it's been a useful distraction tool from their own fundamental economic mismanagement, just as they've done the slight of hand of talking about 'deficit' instead of debt. It's now all coming home to bite.
Now we are all kind of indentured servants to said private investors and institutions. We owe them x amount of our future income/wealth.
It's a highly devious and clever exploitative economic arrangement. The implosion of the debt bubble threatened to destroy no wealth...only paper money....but to 'save the system' the taxpayer had give up a portion of their future wealth.
Worthless paper traded for real wealth and the sweat required to create it.
A wealth transfer.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 05 October 2011 at 11:33 PM.
06 October 2011, 12:32 AM
#23
I can't say banks have to take full responsibility for financial problems, but they do have alot to answer for, certainly in terms of lending to the average joe.
I'm not going to go into my own personal cirumstances specifically, but I will say, people (especially at the lower end of the wage scale) can be short sighted, even stupid. It's not necessarily that they don't work hard, but ultimately, they don't earn enough doing what they are doing and credit was made far too easy. People don't like to live without any luxuries and credit was thrown at people, making having some 'nice' things possible and temptation is strong when you have instant funds in your hands, that otherwise wouldn't be available.
This is not to say individuals aren't responsible for their own mess, that is definitely not the case, but banks/card companies have allowed people to get into a mess they often cannot get out of. It was made too easy to get a loan/cc, and then to easy to get another to pay off that one, and quickly people ended up in the sh*t.
Yes, people (myself well and truely included) shouldn't be so stupid to get into this spiral, but those in responsible positions shouldn't have made credit so accessible (given they have financial information in front of them) that people could get so deeply in trouble. Imo, they should be stepping in and saying no more....
FWIW, I am paying back what I owe (albeit a bit slowly) as I am ultimately responsible. I just feel that if those with lending power had been more sensible than I was, I wouldn't be in this mess, much like many other people.
I don't need some lecture about my stupidity, I give myself enough of a hard time as it is, this above is just my view that banks do have to take some of the blame.
I'm not going to go into my own personal cirumstances specifically, but I will say, people (especially at the lower end of the wage scale) can be short sighted, even stupid. It's not necessarily that they don't work hard, but ultimately, they don't earn enough doing what they are doing and credit was made far too easy. People don't like to live without any luxuries and credit was thrown at people, making having some 'nice' things possible and temptation is strong when you have instant funds in your hands, that otherwise wouldn't be available.
This is not to say individuals aren't responsible for their own mess, that is definitely not the case, but banks/card companies have allowed people to get into a mess they often cannot get out of. It was made too easy to get a loan/cc, and then to easy to get another to pay off that one, and quickly people ended up in the sh*t.
Yes, people (myself well and truely included) shouldn't be so stupid to get into this spiral, but those in responsible positions shouldn't have made credit so accessible (given they have financial information in front of them) that people could get so deeply in trouble. Imo, they should be stepping in and saying no more....
FWIW, I am paying back what I owe (albeit a bit slowly) as I am ultimately responsible. I just feel that if those with lending power had been more sensible than I was, I wouldn't be in this mess, much like many other people.
I don't need some lecture about my stupidity, I give myself enough of a hard time as it is, this above is just my view that banks do have to take some of the blame.
06 October 2011, 07:50 AM
#24
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It's easy (but wrong) to blame 'the banks'. This is a mass market problem where borrowing was encouraged and everyone thinks they're owed a better standard of living without necessarily studying or working to achieve it. Combine that with governments of all hues who want to spend to make themselves popular to win votes and it's a dangerous downward spiral that leads to the inevitable boom and bust.
06 October 2011, 10:37 AM
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06 October 2011, 02:28 PM
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Can't think why Greece should get any special help whe it is all down to them for spending and borrowing the way they did and not bothering to pay taxes. It is down to them completely and more fool those who kept lending them more cash to throw away.
I think they should be left to stew in their own juice and to hell with the Euro movement
at the same time. A federated Europe would be a disaster. We should get out while the going is comparatively good.
Les
I think they should be left to stew in their own juice and to hell with the Euro movement
at the same time. A federated Europe would be a disaster. We should get out while the going is comparatively good.
Les
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