JTaylor

Ignoring it clearly hasn't worked, how do we deal with it going forward?

Saxo Boy

Easy, stop targeting and hammering the middle classes in our courtrooms (easy targets, don't know the system, likely to get convicted, boosts figures)(ex. jumping out from behind bushes to catch an X5 doing 70 in a 60) and start to get our hands dirty and deal with the real problems in society (i.e. violence, theft, racism, etc). These little ***** that hang around the streets in gangs carrying knives need to know that they will a) be caught b) be punished in a way that they won't be able to tolerate (i.e. not 3 months in a nice prison with their mates).

Here is one example of what you could do. Anyone convicted of a crime is immediately precluded from claiming any benefits for a year. Get convicted again and it's three years. Third strike and it's 10 years. If they starve and die on the streets....oh well.

In short, get tough.....real tough.

The Zohan

How do you mean ignoring it, money has been put into so called underprivileged areas, in the form of community projects and initiatives. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

Parenting need looking at as does the whole benefits culture, just giving people money for doing nothing and them not contributing to society and the community is not the answer.

Looking at why schools are failing - in a lot of cases will lead back to parenting and the formative years and lack of role models and input from the parents.

I find i keep coming back to the parents however i look at it.

TelBoy

At which point they'd become even more feral and commit even more crimes just to survive.

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

TBH, I think we've done too much for the underclass and created a society that expects handouts and freebies and when they don't get them they can't understand why not - they are uneducated and therefore do not understand the need for education and assume that they deserve to be supported by the taxpayer.

The government needs to continue what it is trying to do by undermining the current benefits system to ensure that only those who have a genuine need get something and everyone else gets of their fat lazy backside, gets educated, trained or whatever it takes and gets a 'kin job

There's plenty of jobs out there FFS and they go to the immigrant community because the underclass are too lazy to do the work, expect something for nothing and when they don't get it, go to the media/trade unions etc. No wonder immigrant workers are an attractive alternative to employing the underclasses.

The Zohan

The answer is to build more prisons then, not to 'reward' them. Prisons with tough regimes, no drugs and the opportunities to better themselves and do something constructive with their lives and their time in jail but tough enough to deter further visits back inside.

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

National service.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Social protection costs this country £200 billion a year which is totally unsustainable. Welfare needs to be enough to buy food and basic accomodation and that is it. Vouchers to stop people wasting their benefits on **** and booze, I don't give a **** if it is degrading having to use food vouchers. It's a lot more degrading telling your kids they cannot eat tonight.

specialx

Give parents the right to hit their kids again! My morals were helped along by the odd slap from my dad! He showed me in no uncertain terms just how far i could push, where as these toe rags are not!

"what you gonna do about it!"

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

It's not illegal is it? Well not in England anyway.

Leslie

One of the most effective ways to stop juvenile criminal behaviour.

Les

Brun

National service would be a good start i think - anyone remember Bad Lads Army?

specialx

Taken from http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/...ackingchildren

It is unlawful for a parent or carer to smack their child, except where this amounts to ‘reasonable punishment’. This defence is laid down in section 58 of the Children Act 1989, but it is not defined in this legislation.

Whether a ‘smack’ amounts to reasonable punishment will depend on the circumstances of each case taking into consideration factors like the age of the child and the nature of the smack.

However, physical punishment will be considered "unreasonable" if it leaves a mark on the child or if the child is hit with an implement such as a cane or a belt.

There are strict guidelines covering the use of reasonable punishment and it will not be possible to rely on the defence if you use severe physical punishment on your child which amounts to common assault or battery.




My dad left plenty of marks on me, I couldn't sit down for 2 days once! You know what? I deserved it!

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

It's only effective when it's used properly though. It does not work when waynetta is twatting her son around the head every 5 minutes down at the job centre because she has not had her morning 4 pack of stella yet and is a bit cranky.

TelBoy

National Service won't happen because we can't afford it.


We can't afford NOT to, in my opinion, but future invisible savings don't look great on the justification spreadsheet. So on we go, looking for Elastoplast "solutions" that just don't exist.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Continue doing what? Talking about it? They haven't done anything

The Zohan

+1

rickya

iTrader: (18)

rossyboy

iTrader: (8)

Genocide.

Just think of the savings

Saxo Boy

So basically you accept a situation where the underclass are effectively blackmailing us. (i.e. give us free stuff or we'll create havoc). To me, this seems an unacceptable situation for a society to accept.

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

you are basically forcing them to steal to live then ..

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

I think it needs a two-pronged approach of educating these kids that their lives can be more than what they are, along with proper enforcement of the law. More visible policing (officers on the beat), more money for schools in bad areas, greater police intervention of truancy, tackle gangs, be harsher on petty crime and anti-social crime, remove/reduce benefits of anyone caught doing violent/anti-social crime, cash incentives to members of the community that contribute to maintaining their areas.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Workhouses, national service and/or non-military equivalents, anything that makes sure they're not given a single penny for doing nothing but sit on their thieving lazy backsides.

Society does NOT owe anyone a living who refuses to be a functioning part of it, end of.

austinwrx

you have an education system where a teachers word, is not law

gcse's are so downgraded, evey child is a "winner" and never a failure.

media/culture gives people the impression they can be millionaires or filmstars with virtually no effort

we have a massive underclass on estates, breeding like rabbits, knowing the state will keep on providing

everyone as "Human rights" they don't know what they actually are though !

no respect for adults, the law, or basic morals or decency to ones fellow man.


I would have the harsh no tolerance prisons as in the states.

I'd force people to stay in school

physical punishment- hard labour- rock breaking, sweeping roads: public humilation

we never seem to punish crime with fitting sentences: how many times do you watch the cop shows and little jordan who has twoced a car, caused devastation: gets a £80 fine and sent on his way ?

how about chopping his hands off ?

actually the welfare reform bill is going to massively cap peoples benefits iin 2013.

interestingly a lot of the rioters seem not to have been the unemployed as such- so what was their excuse ?


I do broadly think society will just keep getting worse sadly

The Zohan

Comments taken from here: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/mps-parliam...045713834.html

My son was one of the thin blue line in an area of London during the worse of thr riots. I watched a video on youtube and could clearly see my boy having bricks and worse hurled at him, but still he carried on with his job. This same boy who came from a lone parent family with no support from his father, who lived in a hostel for the homeless with me when he was little, who lived on a sink estate in a disadvantaged area and still has integrity, morality and is a dammed fine young man. No excuses for this behaviour, but the parents of rioters need to look at their parenting skills. I came from the same estate, now have a Masters Degree, it can be done.
As for police cuts, I defy any politician to have stood on the front line with just 8 of you against a mob of 200+ and still say we need less police. They have been on duty for 36 hours, this is why they are managing to put out the numbers. That is not sustainable and for Cameron et al to even suggest it is is ludicrous and seriously makes me question just how in touch with reality this lot are.

My husband is an ex serviceman, 26 yrs in service and has seen most conflicts, taken part in them too. he has a chest full of medals, we have been on parades, there is a nationwide feeling of pride and gratitude toward them. He watched my boy and said that it was ironic, that he with all his medals had not seen such bravery by so few. I am absolutely appalled by the decision to go ahead with cuts in both Police and Defence. Wake up for God's sake.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

They do seem to think they are hard done by, most to me looked fit and healthy, not emaciated or weak.

They seem to think money and "stuff" is the be all and end all and that the "Rich" have it all sussed, I know rich people and basically it removes one challenge from life, my sons mate's parents are fantastically wealthy but the poor kid has a degenerative disease that means that since we have known him he has gone from being able to walk to not, these parents have had to see this happening to their own child, to find him in floods of tears in front of the computer reading about his condition, do they still want to be "Rich" at all costs ? In know people with expensive houses in the country who are the most unhappy people I know.

The link between effort and attainment needs re-establishing as does the link betwen attainment and reward, they generally dont put any effort in and just look for instant gratification, study is frowned upon and they disrupt lessons then wonder why they fail exams and are not employable, they speak like morons as well. They need to understand that the effort needs to be sustained year in year out to get where they want to be, starting now and imagine what you can do in ten years from say 20 to 30, then compare it to where you will be if you carry on the same ?

They need to understand luck, some people are born intelligent and handsome but you cant all be me some people are born into money, lucky them, no point in worrying about what other people have as mostly its all a front anyway, top show, some people do have it all well sorry but you were born to a teenage mum in Peckham, its not the best start but its still a start, dont worry about where you are from too much, concentrate on where you are going and dont worry too much about those trying to drag you down to their level, move away from them if its a problem.

They need to realise their blessings, none are hungry or homeless, not having a 40 inch telly an M3 and designer clothes is not poverty, I dont have them and I earn 50k a year, I only went to a Manchester comprehensive with 2000 other kids, to them I am "rich", well perhaps by their standards I am but then I went to school did exams, worked hard, had some knocks, got up again and if I was out of work I went out in the morning until I had something to do, however menial, I have worked from 12 years of age.

The hard done by thing needs dispelling, they need to see that working people are providing for them that they would starve if they didnt, some gratitude is in order to the rest of the population, some realisation that they are responsible for themselves, not the government, the rich or anyone else.

Not everyone can be rich, most of the country isn't, people just do without things to pay for basics, boring, but that is reality, spice it up by bettering yourself, read books, make music and try to do things well, stop focusing on the instant gratiifcation you get through drugs, sex, booze, video games and tv, all fine institutions but understand far greater satisfaction can be had by the things you consider hard or boring, you get out what you put in, money

A flash car and deisgner clothes will not make you happy on their own and none are a substitute for self respect, you can attain status in other ways.

Also, last time I looked, being black does not preclude anyone from success, I see a lot of black guys at work, dressed in suits doing business, making money but they seem totally different to the ones looting, they dont all talk like a mutant and do the pimp limp, the racial difference does not exist until you start acting up to fill a stereotype, you are not a West Coast rapper, you are from Manchester, London or whatever, turn it in or tone it down as nobody wants a Notorious D.I.C.K in the workplace, same for the whiteys and pull your ****ing pants up, stop limping, you arent hurt and you arent a pimp !

richs2891

Well said and V true !

Richard

Clarebabes

Absolutely spot on.

BTW, I worked with a lad who wouldn't work, thought that as long as he got paid for doing **** all, he would continue. I asked him if he could understand why working people like me would be a bit annoyed with that, but he didn't see the link. He actually didn't know that I paid tax and that was where some of the money he got came from. They think the Government just has a massive pile of money ready to dole out....

A lot of them have never left the town they live in and travelling to the county town was like asking them to fly to the moon. It was even a stretch to get them to travel to the next estate in the same town! Their whole lives are based on who is ******** who and where their next joint is coming from.

I worked with a girl who had never eaten chicken on the bone before, so wouldn't come to Nandos because it was "a bit foreign". No wonder she was severely overweight, she ate 6 packs of crisps a day plus chocolate and general crap, smoked 20 **** a day and was drunk at weekends. She was 15 then.

I have lots of stories of young people with no aspirations, or their only aspiration is to get a council flat and continue to suck off the social. Social Security was originally designed to help people out in hard times, now it is a lifestyle choice. That has become the problem.

mgcvk

There has to be a general recognition of the under class or scum class as a layer way below the working class. They need to be stigmatised more. It annoys me to hear people referring to these people as working class, they aren't. Prison is no deterrent. I can only see something like a proper boot camp or national service being an answer. Or parade them through the streets in pink Y-fronts to be pelted with rotten fruit in the stocks, which will never happen.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I think TV plays a big part, Eastenders celebrates bad behaviour and portrays anyone nice as being weak, all the adverts are full of shiny stuff and the insidious bit is they make you feel like you are missing out if you dont have something and how you will be more respected, more succcesful and sexually attractive.

Nobody needs designer brands, clothese are cheaper than ever nowadays with the supermarkets selling them and places like Matalan and Primark but they never seem to be good enough, has to have a label, if they really wanted to get at the rich a start would be not buying a £100 trainers or any other branded stuff that makes these companies vast amounts of money, trainers are made in sweat shops for pennies and the marketers make them so kids cant do without them, I reckon £30 is enough to buy any pair of trainers and provide a fair profit for all involved,people with no money need to understand that spending £100 on trainers doesnt make you look rich.