RobJenks

I have just read this article in the DM - This bloke Blair is really hated .


Tories tell Brussels Tony Blair can't become EU President as Ireland votes Yes to Lisbon Treaty | Mail Online

Does he continue to have any support in the UK?

Snazy

Yes he continues to be supported in the UK, almost as fanatically as iPhones! lol

Snazy

lol of course not, he is off conquering Europe now, onto bigger and better things.

My opinion of the guy remains as it has been for years. But I am not old enough, educated enough or wise enough to have such an opinion of the ****, so will retire back to my little box now, and let the Blairites take the stage.

All hail Blair, all hail Blair..........

hodgy0_2

war criminal with the morals of a suicide bomber imo

Martin2005

Now I'd normally have a lot of respect for what you post on here, but this is just wrong

I understand the sentiment of course, if you believe that Blair lied about WMD then you can call in war criminal' i suppose, all though I believe that is incredibly simplistic.

But what about Kosova????????? or Sierra Leone????? or Afganistan??????, was he not absolutely right about those?

How about Northern Ireland..was that all lies and spin too???


Come on gents some balance please

hodgy0_2

That he has serious questions to ask over the prosecution of the Iraq war is undeniable

It is a war crime to attack a sovereign state in an act of aggression and it is not just me saying this – I am backed up by very many eminent professors of international law

That he has morals of a suicide bomber refers to his assertion that he does not fear being judged by humanity (indeed he believes we have no power to judge him)

He will be ultimately be judged by God – and this is exactly, it seems to me, how suicide bombers are indoctrinated

“it is not for us to judge you actions – you will be judged by Allah”

Conceptually these views seem the same

It’s not good enough to prosecute an illegal war where 500 thousand to a million innocent civilians die and then turn around and say well actually it’s not for you to judge me

What crap and a recipe for all sort of rubbish – like suicide bombing

You can’t just offset your responsibility to humanity to a God (who some people don’t even believe in)

I think he and labour did some great things -- like NI and education etc -- but i,m sorry Martin it is all over shadowed be his duplicity over Iraq etc

Ultimately I am a humanist – I believe in the power and beauty of human life and the ingenuity and resolve of the human spirit – with no deference to a higher power

I cannot and will not sit and watch merry hell in another land – with human life being lost on an unimaginable scale all for the hubris and religious beliefs of a few idiots who don’t even think that ultimately they have any moral responsibility to me as a fellow human.


in referring to religious idiots I make no distinction between Blair and some Muslim Mullah preaching to a suicide bomber – which is, I think where I came in on this point.

Snazy

Can I just clarify this....
Wrong about one, right about 3, so forgive for the wrong ?

GC8WRX

Your so sad mate, give it a rest with the iphone bashing, is it cos you couldnt have one?

Martin2005

Nobody said anything about forgiveness (thats not in our gift anyway) but at least recognise the positives, that's all I'm saying. Or should we only focus on what supports our political view point?

Martin2005

I'm not sure he has ever said that it's not for us to judge him, has he?

The war in Iraq ended up as one big **** no doubt, to suggest otherwise would be crazy. But it's so easy with hindsight to be clever about this conflict.
I'm also a humanist, and I remeber the humanitarian disaster that was Iraq prior to the war. Sanctions were crippling the country and causing huge hardship, and yet there was no way they were going to be lifted whilst Saddam was in charge, so there were very good humanitarian reason to get rid of him, of course this wasn't the reason given....

As we now know there was no WMD left in Iraq, the big question here is did western governments know this?
I remember the debates and discussions at the time, there really wasn't many credible people or organisation saying he didn't have WMD, indeed Saddams very own actions supprted the case, remember how he wouldn't allow any of his scientist out of the country to be interviewed by the UN? Remember how he, at every opportunity blocked the UN inspectors from doing their jobs? My point is it's easy to reconstruct history with hindight but at the time the debate wasn't whehter he had these weapons, it was how much of a threat he posed with them.

Of course there was significant exaggeration made about Saddam's capabilities in the lead up to war (45 min and all that). But to suggest that Blair and other western leaders just lied, is illogical because it would soon enough become clear that it was a lie.

The real problem for Blair is the total ****-up made of post war Iraq, not the failure to find WMD.

On the often used 'illegal war' mantra, we'll im sure that Sierra Leonne and Kosova and Afganistan were also 'illegal', doesn't mean they weren't the right things to do though does it?

hodgy0_2

yes he has said it, in a newspaper interview

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

He certainly did, I agree.


And the sooner he goes and explains it to his God, the better!

Martin2005

Is this the quote?

"That decision has to be taken and has to be lived with," the Prime Minister replies. "In the end there is a judgment that, well, I think if you have faith about these things, then you realise that judgment is made by other people... if you believe in God, it's made by God as well."

hodgy0_2

nearly -- not quite though -- it was more direct

It was more to do with his personal belief that ultimately he would be judged by God (probably without the 50 virgins though) and that somehow what we (the rest of humanity) thought was not his worry or concern

and this goes to the heart of the matter

I watched a TV programme in the run up to the war where TB was asked, by a concerned armed forces mother, if he was sure Iraq had WMD – he looked her straight in the eye and said “Yes – if you have seen the evidence that I have there can be no doubt”

Well what exactly did he see – we have yet to find out

The thing is blind belief is not enough – I am sure he believed Iraq had WMD – but I believe the moon is made of cheese & fairies live at the bottom of my garden; it just doesn’t make it true.

If you read Hans Blix and Scott Ritter’s (both UNSCOM inspectors) account of the run up to the war you get barely disguised farce – The US/UK kept telling UNSCOM where WMD were located, after all Iraq was the most surveyed country in the history of the world – literally every square inch was photographed daily by satellites, they kept being directed to derelict outbuildings – and in one case a mobile chemical factory turned out to be a couple of burnt out fire engines

In fact the irony is that both Blix and Ritter believed Iraq had WMD – but crucially, where they differed from Blair was that they insisted on actual evidence – FACT, not simple beliefs

But what can you expect from Blair a man who needs no validation for his beliefs – the belief is enough (for him)

its just a shame a million people had to die for him to realise he may have been mistaken -- but who are we to judge him

Martin2005

He was mistaken, or most of the world was mistaken?

The reason the yanks, French, Germans and Russians believed he had WMD was because they sold him most of the technology!!

I'm not convinced that i understand the role religion played in the invasion of Iraq, are we suggesting some sort of crusade?

My belief is that Blair was so convinced by previous successful interventions, where he had been completely vindicated by subsequent events, and that post 9-11 it was better to act early than allow a problem to bite you on the **** some time later. The problem was he was wrong about how this would turn out. Of course his faith didn't help in the end, but I'd say it's more to do with years of leadership sending people slightly bonkers, not helped by the fact that long-term PM end up surrounded only by people who agree with them, iy happened to Blair for sure, it also happen to Maggie.

One other point and I know it's slightly cherlish but, to claim a million people died in Iraq is almost certainly an exaggeration, there have been several reports into this and they vary wildly in numbers (usually biased by whichever side of the debate the report comes from), so why choose the topist number out there and use it like it's a fact?

hodgy0_2

is that a question Dave?

I think he has converted to Catholicism (which has some pretty weird beliefs in itself)

but could be wrong

hodgy0_2

well if I could be bothered I could dig up quote after quote from the neocon right in the US that said as much

the million is coz i coudn't be bothered to type 500 to a million again tbh

but I am quite happy to settle at 500 thousand men women children, all mothers, brothers fathers sons daughters to someone

Martin2005

Now don't get stroppy, I'm not being picky here it's a highly emotive subject I know, but part of the problem with this debate has been the revisions and exaggerations of both sides have used. The range of death in Iraq that i've read is between 50k and 750k btw

hodgy0_2

i didn't mean to sound stroppy Martin sorry if it came over that way-- and yes it is an emotive subject

i'm sure we would probaly agree on more things than we disagree on TBH

but my original satement re Bliar is not just the ill thought out ramblings of a SNet nutter -- it is my genuine thoughts on the matter

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Said this years ago: Blair will be remembered as the PM who couldn't afford to send ENGLISH children to university, but could send British kids to an illegal war to die..........and din't even equip them properly

And so it would seem is his legacy.