EddScott

My grandmother is in hospital after breaking her collar bone. She is 92 and up until now has been in a supervised flat.

She is now very unlikely to be able to go back to her flat so will have to go into full time care. However, there may be a problem.

My mother has always assumed that when gran went into care, the flat would be sold and that would pay for her accomodation. It turns out that when she went into the flat, its ownership went into a property company owned by my mothers sisters husband.

The problem we have is that these people are highly unlikely to put their hands in their pockets to pay for the accomodation - even though they used grans money to buy this flat.

So what happens to gran? Does she just get dumped in the first place with a space. Does my mother pay out of her own pocket. We have no real means legally of forcing them to pay or at least help pay.

Its not so much that uncle and aunty have effectively ripped her off its that they are highly likely to claim poverty and gran will end up in some horrible place.

stilover

A polite word in your mothers sister husbands ear should do the trick.

Get them to sell the flat, all all proceeds go into your Gran's bank account to pay for her care.

If they refuse, call in the police. If they've done something dodgy, it could be construed as fraud.

j4ckos mate

they usually just go straight into the house of lords

EddScott

Theres nothing dodgy about it, just not very fair. No chance of forcing them to pay either.

I appreciate the idea behind making her skint so she gets maximum benefits but at what cost to gran - she ends up in some flea ridden back street home while unc and aunt get to keep the lolly. They've even f*cked off to Canada for 3 weeks and left my mother to deal with it. They live round the corner, we live 4 hours away.

David Lock

Poor old duck, hope she recovers well.

Life's never simple is it and I think you are saying that your gran's own daughter is happy to stitch her up

As it stands at present she could end up in a local authority place. Some are OK but others are grim. Private full time care is v expensive. I take it would be asking too much for her to stay with your mum with help brought in?

There are some charity care providers such as Abbeyfield that offer different standards of care at quite reasonable rates. If she has any capital then you could look around for a package that offers lifetime private care for a one-off lump sum payment. Obviously they take age and current health into account when assessing lump sum required but at 92........

It wouild probably help if your mum or you could get an Enduring Power of Attorney in place so that you can fight on gran's behalf. If the wicked uncle doesn't play ball then you could think about asking a solicitor to unravel the legitimacy of flat owership business; sounds bit iffy to me.

dl

EddScott

They have power of attorney. My mother is a director of our company so isn't in a position to look after her. Aunty however, retired a while ago and I don't believe has any intention of looking after gran.

I'm not quite sure what the score is but unc and aunt say they've had to fork out thousands to keep gran where she is. I suspect they have helped along the way but I do know that any money she has had over the last 25 years has gone to them anyway. Unc does some dodgy property bond thing and I think he had a bunch of cash off my gran when the FSA decided to shut him down - he actually won the case but I don't think he's been in too much of a hurry to pay it back.

My wife was a carer before she went into hair dressing. She could possibly do it but it would mean giving up the hair - at least for the time being. Still, its unlikely any contributions will be forthcoming.

Tiggs

havent read all the details above but....in simple terms, if she has less than £22,500 or thereabouts, the local authority will pay most (if not all) the costs of a home they choose. If she has more then she pays for whatever she can afford. If she's loaded, and has £1000 per week plus, then she can have somewhere ok. If she's in somewhere cheap and fully local authority funded then she can go somewhere better if someone else (3rd party) foots the difference (but they must be able to show they can pay that difference long term)

As for the house - if the deal was sound then i'd be surprised if there's much that will get her the money back.....if it was done recently then you may find questions are asked about whether she deliberate deprived her estate of assets in order to dodge paying for her care.

Normal small print .....do your own research etc, etc...i have plenty of clients in homes but (luckily for them) none of them are funded as they all have their own assets so my knowledge on local authority funding is a bit limited.

EddScott

Tiggs - many thanks for the input.

ScoobyWon't

There is some legislation where counts of fraud can be brought against those people who are lining their own pockets instead of looking after the person who granted the the power.

I'll try and dig it out of my notes tomorrow after work, or if it's a quiet day in custody, I'll have a check through the police national legal database, then.

Tiggs

just read the OP properly, i'd be amazed if theres anything illegal about the house deal (in the sense people are suggesting here) it doesn't sound like it was done via a power of authority...sounds like she just gave them the house.

but.....if this was in recent years....and only came about because she moved into supervised accommodation, then there could be good argument that some deliberate deprivation went on.....i.e. steps taken with the purpose of avoiding funding for long term care - and this sounds the case, theres not many other reasons an old lady gives away her home....it's a ridiculous idea for all normal reasons (CGT, etc)

So.....that would be interesting! In simple terms, you cant just say "i'm old so i'll off load my assets now so when i'm in a home next year i can claim i'm poor"

BlkKnight

It might just be the case that her sister has put her assets into "trust" so that the government can't get their theaving mitts on it if she were to go into full time care.

We've done this for my Gran to they are unable to touch the funds.

Not sure if it's been mentioned above, but when someone goes into care, they are expected to pay for their care until they have about £22k's of assets. Usually you have to sell your home + lose your savings until you hit this threshold.

This is why putting property into trust is the way to go. Unfortunately it has to be done a number of years before the person goes into care.

Incidentally, regardless of who is paying for the care - she will receive exactly the same treatment.

EddScott

Aha, this is what I was looking for in a way. In the same residential home, some people pay from their own pocket and some paid for by the state?

She has no assets at all. Her house was sold about 20 years ago for £40K. The flat she lives in was bought for £48K. The 8K came from uncle. The flat was put into this property bond scheme he used to run before the FSA shut it down - they lost and he now does this thing like the posh cars for £XXXX a year but with houses and yachts. They claim they are broke but 3 weeks in canada, 2 children through Uni and a large house in the country suggests otherwise.

My mother is concerned that she will have to pay on her own to keep gran in a reasonable manner. The thing is she will too, she'd sell everything to make sure gran is alright while the others just watch.

Leslie

I suppose it is all down to the consciences of the people who have power of attorney and who used your Gran's money to buy the flat as you say. As you say you probably can't force them to do so legally.

Caring for an elderly person in your home is a very difficult task and unbelievably tiring. Mrs Leslie looked after her mother who was very senile as well for a good many years, and I shall never know how she managed. She is a pretty above average person in all ways, but having seen the problems at first hand, I know how hard it is. She used to get a couple of weeks off occasionally when the hospital would take her mother for respite care.

I think you should do your best to ensure that the others with the power of attorney etc. are well aware of their real moral responsibilities and that they do all that is necessary to keep your gran in a decent manner. It would be very uinfair to lay all that on your wife.

Les

EddScott

Had some good news yesterday afternoon. It would appear that as my grandfather was in the army and my grandmother receives his army pension, she is entitled to accomodation is a new residential home in Solihull (where she lives). Assuming the others agree (they are an hour away, we still 4 hours but all motorway so not so bad) she can go there.

So although the money/estate issue will still grind, at least it looks like she'll be OK.

Leslie

Thats the main thing-glad to hear it.

Les