wagrain

Just over a week ago I had a letter from the DVLA saying I had failed to notify them of a change of keeper for registration mark: YA55***.
It was a motorbike I had sold back in June.

Their letter said I was being fined £50 but if I paid within 14 days they would drop it to £35. If I failed to pay they were going to take me to court where it would be a higher fine and would add £45 for costs.

WTF!!!

Now, when I sell a vehicle, I always send off the V5C, I never let the buyer have it. And I always take a photo copy or scan of it for my records (I'm **** like that).

So I filled in the back of the fine with the new keeper details (which I still had from my scanned copy of the V5C I'd sent off) and wrote them a letter telling them "**** off" I've posted it to you by Royal Mail 1st class, here's a photo copy of the completed V5C signed by both parties as proof, I've fullfilled my legal obligation, its not my fault if Royal Mail or you have lost it. By the way, ****** is my nearest court which I'll be happy to attend for your court case against me. Oh, and I'll be claiming £25 per hour costs plus travelling expenses.



Had a reply from them Saturday morning . . .
"I can confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter as in this instance, it appears that the DVLA did not receive your correspondence.


I think it was having a scanned copy of the V5C that saved me from going to court.

What would you have done it that situation?
How many would think, sod it, its only £35 I'll pay it to save the hassle?


If they want money from me they'll have to drag me through the courts first!

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

Same thing happened to me - the guy I sold my Cally to didn't send the form, I told them who he was and they wrote back saying thanks and no further action would be taken.

Things do wrong occasionally, I can't get worked up about them

Mackers

Good on yeah hey DVLA

fatherpierre

Having a scanned copy doesn't prove you posted it - just that you copied it.#

Whenever I deal with the DVLA I always send it by recorded delivery after photocopying the document. Again, not 100%, but best to cover bases with them as they are mercanary buggers and try to blame you for their own failures.

MikeCardiff

iTrader: (2)

Agree - if I ever have to send stuff to the DVLA I use recorded - they seem to 'not receive' an awful lot of post, and then send out fines for not notifying change of keeper ( my wife got done for this recently, and she sent her paperwork in by normal post ).

PaulC72

I doubt I would have been so abrasive on my first letter second maybe, it all worked out in the end and these things do happen.

wagrain

Having the scanned copy meant I had a record of the purchasers name, address and signature. Thats the only reason I sent them a copy. It in effect proved a duty of care on my behalf.

You don't need to sent it recorded delivery, the same as they don't have to send a NIP / Fines / etc by recorded. Sending by 1st class post is good enough.

If I'd have told them I sold it to a bloke who's name I can't remember and I don't know where he lives, then I don't think they would have let me off so easily.

If that was the case I'd end up, in all probability, having to pay the fine.

So by scanning it into my pc before posting I've saved myself at least £35!

fatherpierre

Had a similar thing for a car I sold to someone that exported it. I complied with all their requirments but they then denied receiving the paperwork and demanded £80.

I wrote to them saying I had and would not pay. Letters were exchanged fo about 7 months with them making court threats, so I said let's go to court as I have all the proof I sent and they received the documents.

They then sent me a letter similar to yours, backing down and apologising for their errors.

W@nkers

David_Dickson

Its best to always send recorded or special delivery to them so you have proof they received it.

The sad thing is, when they send out SORN stuff, it seems to be that them sending it normal mail is proof that you have received it, yet trying this the other way gets you nowhere.

Wenker Man

Whenever I deal with any government body or large inept company (banks, Virgin, BT, Sky, BG etc). I always photocopy any correspondance to keep on record.

More important things that can cause headaches if lost in the post like registration retentions, V5s, tax quibbles etc, I send recorded delivery.

wagrain

If you really must have some postal proof, just get a proof of posting certificate from the post office - it doesn't cost you a penny, but should the DVLA through a wobbly, you have proof you posted it.

Your legal requirement is to notify them of the change of keeper, not to provide proof that they received it!
As in my case, if it went to court, the DVLA would not win. The burden of proof is up to them to prove I didn't notify them. They can't, and the fact that I even kept a record of the transaction would be good enough for the judge to rule in my favour.

Been to court a few times over what I consider petty matters, and I've never lost yet.
A major national vehicle rental company tried it on with me over a dispute with a van hired from them. They kept a £200 credit card deposit and wanted a further £1500 from me. I admitted partial responsability and thought the £200 deposit was more than adequate. They were greedy and wanted more. In the end, they got nothing, I got my £200 back plus another £200 thanks to a decent judge! Result!

speedking

<devil's advocate>Just proves they received an envelope, not what you claim to be the contents.</devil's advocate> Ditto proof of posting.

fatherpierre

DVLA use some law/clause (you'll have to look it up) where it's up to the sender to prove they sent the item - but that law/clause doesn't apply to them, due to mass mail sent. As do the police etc.

The only way to prove something is sent is by rec/spec delivery.

But, having been in court a 'few' times over similar matters, proof of postage doesn't mean you posted the item you claim to have posted.

Think ebay, paypal and fraud........... The favourite is for your fraudster to post a crisp packet by special delivery to the happy customer, getting their laptop for £300 less than Comet sell it for.

Civil courts rarely now accept your copy of a bit of paper as proof of anything.

wagrain

You, as a seller, cannot prove 100% that the DVLA have received notification of a change of keepers. You can prove you posted something to that address (and the weight of it) if you have a proof of posting cert with a receipt as the weight is on the receipt. You can prove that someone has signed for your correspondence by using recorded delivery, but that doesn't prove it was a staff member from the DVLA that signed for it. It could have been the cleaner!

All you need to do is prove that in all probability you did notify the DVLA of the change.
If you have a copy of the completed V5C and proof of posting "something" to the DVLA, then if it went to court, the judge has to rule that in all probability you did post the V5C to them.

It doesn't matter what they or anyone else may say, you have fullfilled your legal responsabilities to notify them.

If you want to pay a fine then go ahead, but I won't be!

wagrain

BTW it won't be a civil court, it will be County Court if it does go that far. Been there, done that, had a great night out with my awarded costs!

wagrain

Exactly - Proof you SENT , not proof they received!

TRUE - But what have you to gain by posting an empty envelope to the DVLA? Nothing, so in all probability it will have contained the V5C.

Thats where the weight of the posted item comes into play! But in the DVLA cases we are talking about its not relevant as you're not trying swindle the DVLA out of a laptop!

Its County Court NOT Civil Court.
In a County Court case I said to the Judge:
Me: " I telephoned [name of company] and informed them where it was located so they could collect it"
Judge asking their Solicitor: " Do you record the telephone calls?"
Their Solicitor: "NO"
Judge: Well I beleive Mr [ME] made the telephone call, so the responsability was then transferred to [name of company] and if they failed to collect, then it is not Mr [ME] fault.

I had no "proof" I made the call, but in County Court I don't need 100% proof, just the probability to be that I did!

Anyway, I think I've said enough.
I was just letting people know that its best to keep a copy of the V5C before posting so you have a record, as you never know when you may need it!


Sorry if I've bored anyone
Judge

SiDHEaD

How did they know u hadnt notified them? If they hadnt received anything how did they know the keeper had changed??!!

wagrain

I presume the new keeper contacted them when his new V5C didn't turn up?
Or possibly because the insured keeper was different (and living 150miles away from me)
They have access to all the information these days so its easy to work it out.

Same as, if your car was registered at an old address and your drivers licence was at an address. If you have the vehicle insured at your present address then they will find you - A mate got a speeding fine in those circumstances and was suprised they found him, though I wasn't.

Leslie

Very sensible of you to have a scanned copy. Always worth doing that for any kind of official correspondence I reckon. They are good at lying to get more cash out of people.

Les

Dazza01

I always print off a 2 receipts whenever i sell a car which notes down all the new keepers details and the date and time when the car was purchesed, we sign both copies and have one each, and i always keep it untill DVLA send me thestd letter saying the they have updated there records to show the new keepers details.

speedking

PS. My wife just bought a new car and traded hers in. After a couple of weeks she got a letter from the DVLA thanking her for notifying them of the change of keeper. That's good if you know you should get a letter, but if it doesn't arrive then you're none the wiser.

So if you do sell a car then expect a letter of conformation that details have changed. If that doesn't arrive then it would be worth contacting DVLA to check.

pwhittle

I received notification of a transfer of a fine for £175 last year. Followed it up (several phone calls and a day off work to go to Leeds court), and it was for parking fine, which was sent to my old address (even though the DVLA new I'd moved), which of course I didn't receive, so they took me to court in my absence, fined me for not paying the fine, and for failure to notify.

At that time though they didn't acknowledge transfer of ownership as they do now, so they couldn't prove I hadn't sent the V5, or in fact that they hadn't recieved it.
I had to spend a day at the majistrates court (an interesting experience!), and sign a statutory declaration, and convince the majistrates I knew nothing about the fine. Never heard back from them, but it was a stressful PITA (I was only supposed to be in court for an hour or so, and had local authority visitors waiting in the office for me )

pwhittle

surprisingly though I once sold a car and forgot the paperwork, and didn't have a record of the buyer. I wrote to them explaining, and they took me off the V5. not sure they'd do that now!