Paul3446

I was wondering if anyone had any legal knowledge of the following:

An old lady owns a house and the adjoining field, she has rented this field out to someone for years, for a minimal rent, with no official legal contract drawn up.

She recently decided to sell her house with the field, only to be told that she couldn't sell the field as this person is claiming rights to it, as they have been renting it for so long. So although she owns the field, she cannot sell it, this impacts the price of the house by about £60k, so basically she is stuck.

The field has no planning permission or anything on it, and the renter is a local landowner who owns a lot of other land in the area.

A solicitor has told her she cannot do anything as this person has rights to the field, can this be right?

Chrisgr31

Has the tenant paid the rent every year? Or has the rent not been charged?

If the rent has been charged there should not be a problem, other than the need to sort out what the lease terms are, and how to get him out.

Paul3446

As far as I know the rent has been paid every month, which appears to mean this person has something the equivalent of squatters rights.

PaulC72

well I would imagine the situation would be similar to if you had a tenant in a house paying {or not} rent without an agreement as they would also have rights, crap system I know but what can you do if things are not done correctly, it wouldn;t suprise me if the person renting the land without the proper agreement knew this would happen eventually and they would have the rights, it sounds a little fishy to me especially if they have if the 'tenant' already owns land around the area.....

Chrisgr31

Is there anything in writing about this agreement? Doesn't matter if it is not an agreement drawn up by a lawyer etc.

Also what is the tenant doing with the land? Agricultural land is not my specialiality and I would suggest she takes legal advice from a specialist in this sphere. Whereabouts in the country are you?

If it was commercial land then the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 would apply and she would need to give notice, and pay compensation (based on the Rateable Value) but we need to know more.

Paul3446

There's nothing in writing as far as I know, it started as a favour I think, it is purely agricultural land in N Essex.

I agree that this is probably what the renter had in mind from the start, it just seems a crazy situation when the owner of a field, can't actually sell it.

I thought she could raise the rent to a ridiculous level to get rid of them, but she can't even do that apparently.

euan_r

iTrader: (29)

think renter gets first refusal to buy it off her at a bit of a discount before going on open market. thats what happened to us but scottish law, all rents have been declared invoiced etc and was rented for some considerable time (60 years). sure somebody with legal knowledge will be along soon but thats my experience.

Chrisgr31

Is her Solicitor just a local one? Although she might need a surveyor insterad. It would appear she might have inadvertently created a tenancy under the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986 or Agricultural Tenancies Act 1995 dependent on when the field was let.

Specialist advice is almost certainly required

Paul3446

Cheers for all the help, as you say, I think an expert is needed rather than just a standard solicitor, trouble is that's probably going to cost!

Chrisgr31

The Act appears here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1986...9860005_en.pdf and I am not an expert but would suggest she needs to give 12 months Notice to terminate the tenancy. As I say specialist advice.

zip106

This has got me wondering....

I've got 1.5 acres (or thereof) of pasture land that I let someone use to keep sheep on.
It saves me from paying someone to cut the grass and it gives him somewhere to put his sheep.(he also uses other fields around the village).

I don't charge him anything to do this so if I wanted to sell my land would I not be able to?

Bit confused as to wether I should get some sort of contract drawn up before it's too late, as he's only been using the field for 6 months or so.

Sonic'

My garage at the back of my house is accessed by using the farmers field, now apparently there is no 'official; legal right of way to my garage with the exception of the owner of the land (the farmer)

Except the fact that it has been an access route for over 20 years so now it is no longer the farmers and is my legal right of access, at least thats what my solictor told me after going through all the relevant checks

The farmer actually isnt bothered (affects about 5 houses including mine) and has indeed built a large fence and planted large conifers on his side of the access road, so he has no intention of ever reclaiming his land

PaulC72

Baaa, the sheep will have squatters rights.


Sorry just wanted to lighten the mood

No sure legal advice.

Chrisgr31

You'll be under the Agricultural Tenancies Act 1995 which gives fewer rights than the 1986 Act. However I would get a proper agreement drawn up as it will work out best in the long term.

Chrisgr31

Well the £60k difference in price will pay for a lot of legal advice, even at Solicitors rates!

c_maguire

Property Law UK


Check out the site above. Strikes me you have a lazy lawman. There's no way in hell I'd let said neighbour try that on as I get really wild these days when people try to take the p*ss. I must be really old-fashioned, what with me respecting people who get on in life by hard work and graft. I feel like lamping that neighbour, and I haven't even met them aaaarrgh.
Kevin

Freak

You cant pay rent and them claim squatters right as well.
It's one or the other!

Paul3446

Chris, although you say you are not an expert in this field (pardon the pun ), from what you've read, does she have a chance of winning this?

I agree, better to spend £10k on legal advice and gain £60k, but if you spend £10k and still lose then things are not so rosy!

Chrisgr31

I don't know! I can't see in the legislation where it allows the tenant to buy the property! But can see where you have to give Notice.

The first stop is a specialist lawyer who may charge a couple of hundred pounds for the initial advice, and go from there.

Report back what they say!

Leslie

It seems very unfair to me that if someone rents off someone else that after a while they can claim squatter's rights. Surely that can't be right!

Les

Dunk

iTrader: (1)

Take a read of Pye v Graham, a landmark case near me.....

Property Law UK

D

Paul3446

I got a bit more info today, apparently this agreement pre dates 1991 when the law changed in some way, also there is a non-legal contract (back of a *** packet by the sound of it) signed by both parties saying I'll rent you this field.

The solicitor she used was supposedly an expert in the field and his conclusion was that ultimately there was nothing she could do, other than offering a large sum of money to buy this person out.

Chrisgr31

What she needs then is the full story from the Solicitor as to what the law change in 1991 was, and what a large sum of money is!

After all most agricultural land these days is worth relatively small beer, especially compared to a £61K loss!

zip106

Agricultural land has actually seen it's biggest increase in value over the last 12 months.
What was about £2k per acre for grade 1-2, is now selling for £4-5k per acre, if not more.

There was a big discussion on Radio 5 this morning.

High demand has pushed prices right up and I'm one of those that's helped it.
Getting crap returns from ISA's etc so I took some money out and bought land instead

Land price boom - Agricultural Land

Chrisgr31

I know its £4-5k and that as I say is small beer compared to a £61k loss on the value of a house. Well unless she has lost more than 10 acres or more!