borat52

Last October I was caught speeding at about midnight on a dual carriageway. I was caught by a police car with 2 officers and a calibrated speedo. They were pulling onto the dual carriageway at a junction just after I passed it.

They caught up with me (a very short distance as the dual carriageway was ending as a roundabout approached) and then pulled me over. They then claimed I was doing 100mph. I disputed this and said I was not doing 100mph and they offered me a fixed penalty notice ofr 3 points and £60 which I accepted. (I was doing more than 70 but am sure it was not 100). Given the fine and penalty, I went on my way, surrendered my license to the local police and paid the £60 fine which the police processed and debited from my credit card. All of this was done within the time limits set out on the fixed penalty notice. The officer recorded all of my details correctly on the FPN and also signed it alongside their details.

Now I thought this was the end of the matter but this morning my license was returned to me with a letter from the local constabulary stating:
"Unfortunately, due to the speed at which you were travelling, this offence cannot be dealt with through the fixed penalty scheme as a court hearing is required"

They then inform me that a summons will be issued in due course for a court hearing.

Does anybody have an idea where I stand on this legally? I accepted the FPN, surrendered my license and paid the £60 fine. The FPN was issued by the officer and signed by them at the roadside. I did dispute the speed at the roadside but accepted the FPN as I was breaking the speed limit and the standard penalty is 3 points and £60 for a speeding offence so, although unhappy, I understood I had no leg to stand on having been caught.

My question is, is the FPN legally binding on both parties? ie I pay the fine and surrender my license and that is the end of the matter?

Can anyone point me towards some good forums or legal people to have a chat with over this?
Many thanks

OllyK

PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice

Tidgy

they have to do you over a distance i think, not straight away, or at least thats what pepipoo says in the.

also

'As the Association of Chief Police Officers acknowledges in its guidelines, measuring a vehicle's speed using the patrol car's speedometer is only possible if you maintain a constant distance - hardly the situation in this case. '



so that to me says they have failed to carry this out correctly, he bowls and he hits and that ticket is out of here. or at least thats my take on it.

borat52

Many thanks for the advice and forum link.

Tidgy, I'm almost certain they knew they did not have the required distance (think its 1/4 of a mile) at a constant distance from my vehicle and thats why they gave me a FPN and not a court appearance (I'm yet to meet a polcie officer who won't want to do you to the full extent of the law as long as they know they have the evidence). As I said I was speeding so although I would have rathered it not happen, I was willing to pay the fine and take the points on my licence. Now they have decided that they are going to refund my fine and withdraw the FPN (am shocked they can actually do that by law) I'm certainly going to oppose this in court. It just leaves me with a pain in the rear now, as I'll have to go and measure up distances on the road and prove that if I was doing 100mph then they would not have had the distance left to accelerate, catch me, then follow me at a constant distance for 1/4 of a mile. They only put the flashing lights on when I was slowing for the roundabout. Either way its very annoying as its going to be taking time up when I'd otherwise be working (earning tax to fund them) because they have decided to be **** about it.

Tidgy

sounds like they wont be able to prove a thing, so you can get away with no fine at all. tbh its prob worth getting some proper legal advice rather than the scoobynet lawfirm lol, you'll get some good info on here but not all will be acurate and true.

borat52

Now spoken to solicitor about this, awaiting the court summons. Advise has been appreciated. Will post the results back up here if it does go to court.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

It's 2/10ths of a mile.

Alcazar

OllyK

Or 1/5th of a mile for those that have done primary school maths and know how to express a fraction in its lowest common denominator

andy97

iTrader: (1)

borat, road side pulls are notorioulsy diificult to defeat, especially if there are two officers. Each officer will back up the other one and the magistrates will believe everything they say. You'll have to wait and see what the summons is alleging. The tactic the officers employed is to lull you into signing all the necessary paperwork to make their conviction a little easier!

borat52

Totally understand this, but am a little annoyed to have been issued with a standard £60 and 3 point fine, which the officer signed at the road side, only to be told 4 months and a £60 fine on that she made a mistake (the words of the constabulary themselves) and should have given me a court appearance. It just seems a little underhand that she offfered me the fixed penalty at the roadside which I later accepted and now after having paid the fine the police have decided they want to take me to court anyway.

I dont trust the police or the courts one bit, which is why I'm keen not to go to court, on top of this I'm certain I was not doing 100 and the actions of the officers at the time issuing a fixed penalty rather than a court appearance would suggest they did not have firm evidence that I was doing 100, otherwise why did they not just go to court? I'll measure up the road in question and present it to some legal people for consultation. If I can show it was not possible to catch me and persue me over 1/5 of a mile with the distances and speeds involved I'll definately take legal representation to court with a not guilty plea.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

This is the piont, the police dont need hard evidence, all they need is one piece of eqiupment ie calibrated speedo and one officer. Two officers and they will each corroborate their own opinion that you were doing 100mph. You'll be stitched up like a kipper im afraid, unless something is glaringly wrong on the summons, witness statements.

Wait for the summons- post it on pepipoo and see what constructive help they can give.

All the best with it

Andy

borat52

A kind member of pepipoo posted the following:

"
Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988

Proceedings in fixed penalty cases .

78 General restriction on proceedings
(1) Proceedings shall not be brought against any person for the offence to which a fixed penalty notice relates until the end of the suspended enforcement period.
(2) Proceedings shall not be brought against any person for the offence to which a fixed penalty notice relates if the fixed penalty is paid in accordance with this Part of this Act before the end of the suspended enforcement period."

As I read it, point 2 states as long as the fixed penalty is paid within the required time (28 days in this case, and i have a credit card statement to show this was paid on time) the no proceedings shall be brought against me. Pretty much an open and shut case on a point of law.

It seemed very unfair for me to accept the FPN and this to be binding on my part (ie I can't legally appeal in court after accepting the FPN) yet the police can overturn the FPN when it has been fully complied with should they wish to and apply for a court appearance.

Will contact the local constabulary tomorrow to ask their opinion on section 78.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

I would speak to a traffic solictor first, they are usually free for the first 1/2 hour, then on their advice write to the police. Looking good though

NotoriousREV

If your interpretaion of Section 28 is correct, I'd be surprised if th CPS even bother to issue the summons.

I've been in a situation before where I admitted to an offence (that I had committed) but the CPS dropped the case on a point of law so didn't go to court.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

...

Tiggs

Quite possibly the funniest thing on here all day!

Hoppy

They're surely having a laugh, and making a fool of themselves and the law at the same time.

100mph? Exactly? Not 98 or 101mph? Or maybe just a nice round figure plucked from the air

A decent solicitor will get you off and make them look stupid.

Richard.

fatherpierre

Unless new 'evidence' has come to light you shouldn't be prosecuted as you accepted the FPN.

CPS shouldn't authorise a summons, but they are a law until themselves.

It seems as though the issuing officer has messed up large. I'd certainly oppose it and doubt CPS would follow it through anyway.

Once you have accepted the FPN the matter should be closed.

gpssti4

iTrader: (6)

Ahhhhh, I can see the problem with this. I've highlighted for you.........

As has been said I can't see the CPS accepting this. You've accepted that you were in excess of 70mph (but less than 100mph) and took the punishment. How can they now move the goalposts??? A good solicotor will get you off this and make them look stupid. Good luck

Leslie

It always used to be 3/10ths of a mile, that is 0.3 of a mile for that chap above. You may be able to establish that they coiuld not have followed you at a reasonable distance behind you for that distance. If they had just pulled onto the road as you said, and it is a short distance to the roundabout, they surely could not have fulfilled the requirements.

Les

borat52

Been advised to wait for the summons before doing anything by a solicitor. Hopefully it wont get passed the CPS, very annoying though.

I did question the 100 exactly myself and they just told me they had to do more than 100 to catch me.

If it does go to court, and say the judge decides they cannot prove 100mph but I admit to speeding and get a 3 point and £60 fine, will I be liable to pay for my defence costs on that or will the court reimburse?

Leslie

To say that they did more than 100 mph to catch up with you is absolutely no proof that you were driving that fast. It is all a matter of time and distance, the time and distance they were behind you behind you as they pulled on to the road, and the distance from there to the roundabout ahead.

I should make an accurate measurment of the distance from the junction where they pulled out and the roundabout ahead.

Les

WRX_Dazza

sounds like a nightmare scenario!!!!

as stated, get a good traffic solicitor and stick to your guns...

all the best

Hoppy

They must have had to absolutely nail it down the slip road. That's dangerous driving from them, then. Speed kills, you know

borat52

I'm almost certain that I can prove by measuring things up that its impossible that they joined the carriageway at 70, saw me travelling (supposedly at 100) then accelerated and caught me, and followed me for 1/5th of a mile all before the roundabout.

I'm just a little concerned that if it goes to court on this, i'll have to pay for a defence and the judge could quite easily say, "you weren't doing 100, but you were speeding so 3 points and £60" and for me to be left there with a £1k bill for my defence costs.

noobyscooby

You are possibly being prosecuted for speeding and the police say you were doing 100 mph. Once they have stated that they have to prove that is what you were doing.

If they canot, then the judge is not interested in the "oh well, it was only 95" as the police have been proved wrong.

Where's the car's film?

When was their speedo calibrated and checked?

And so on.

Just make sure the person who rperesents you has a good track record as a motoring solicitor

NotoriousREV

Defend yourself at Magistrates court and only hire a brief if you lose and appeal in Crown court.

Geezer

Er, ok, so they had to do GREATER than your speed to catch you up. Funny that, you would have thought they could do it at your speed or a lower one......

They really are dumb sometimes. The only problem, mgistrates are no better. Hopefully though, the CPS will throw it out.

Good luck

Geezer

Leslie

I have found in the past that a polite letter explaining all the facts in your favour to the Chief Constable will often get them to withdraw the summons.

Les