Gary Newlove - will it make a difference or will nothing be done
16 January 2008, 07:37 PM
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Gary Newlove - will it make a difference or will nothing be done
The death that sparked a debate but found no solutions | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
I heard Gary Newloves wife Helen at the press conference givening her speech. It had me close to tears telling what happened and how it has affected the lives of her girls and her.
Helen Newlove's full statement - News - Manchester Evening News
Please take the time to read Helens full ststement. She is spot on and i do doubt many will disagree with her comments
Helen gave her speech with a great deal of dignity.
Helen said what a lot of people have been saying for a long time, i doubt the government wil listen or do anything and i am sure some gov stooge will be on soon tell us that violent crime and antisocial behaviour is on the decrease. Society has to stand up and take responsibility as well for this tragedy.
Do remember - what happend to Gary Newlove could have happened to pretty much any of us.
If any good will come of this tragedy then let it be that things change for the better in the UK.
God bless you and your family Helen.
I heard Gary Newloves wife Helen at the press conference givening her speech. It had me close to tears telling what happened and how it has affected the lives of her girls and her.
Helen Newlove's full statement - News - Manchester Evening News
Please take the time to read Helens full ststement. She is spot on and i do doubt many will disagree with her comments
Helen gave her speech with a great deal of dignity.
Helen said what a lot of people have been saying for a long time, i doubt the government wil listen or do anything and i am sure some gov stooge will be on soon tell us that violent crime and antisocial behaviour is on the decrease. Society has to stand up and take responsibility as well for this tragedy.
Do remember - what happend to Gary Newlove could have happened to pretty much any of us.
If any good will come of this tragedy then let it be that things change for the better in the UK.
God bless you and your family Helen.
Last edited by Bar-Humbug!; 16 January 2008 at 07:56 PM.
16 January 2008, 07:43 PM
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Tragic though this case is, this isn't something that the government (any government) can fix. We need to fix it ourselves. We all have a responsibility to ensure that our actions contribute to society and those of us that choose to raise kids have the responsibility to ensure that they grow up as useful members of society. The parents of the 3 teenagers jailed today failed to do that.
I went to the school opposite Gary Newlove's house and while it was never the poshest area around (in fact some parts of that area were pretty horrible looking council housing) it was never "rough" or full of anti-social yobs (except me, obviously). I still don't think that area is bad, just that there were a couple of very bad apples spoiling it (as is nearly always the case).
I went to the school opposite Gary Newlove's house and while it was never the poshest area around (in fact some parts of that area were pretty horrible looking council housing) it was never "rough" or full of anti-social yobs (except me, obviously). I still don't think that area is bad, just that there were a couple of very bad apples spoiling it (as is nearly always the case).
16 January 2008, 07:49 PM
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^^^
Absolutley - and if you read Helens speech you will see that it is society that is the problem as well as gov't. Helen mentioned about how people just look out for themsleves and parents taking an interest in their kids, no doubt about it that this is vital.
However, one of the kids that killed her husband was let out on bail just hours earlier.
The Police had a campaign running (at the time) stopping these kids, emptying their drinks and sending them on their merry way - back to their stash or to the local sympathetic shop to buy more booze for pennies. Is that how to deal with it - really is it?
Drugs that these kids buy so cheaply and use as they see fit coming in from abroard so easily.
all these things add up.
Kids who know the law and their rights, know they can abuse who they want, do what they want and to who they want. little or no penalties to worry about - the CPS needs to get real and get tough as well
Absolutley - and if you read Helens speech you will see that it is society that is the problem as well as gov't. Helen mentioned about how people just look out for themsleves and parents taking an interest in their kids, no doubt about it that this is vital.
However, one of the kids that killed her husband was let out on bail just hours earlier.
The Police had a campaign running (at the time) stopping these kids, emptying their drinks and sending them on their merry way - back to their stash or to the local sympathetic shop to buy more booze for pennies. Is that how to deal with it - really is it?
Drugs that these kids buy so cheaply and use as they see fit coming in from abroard so easily.
all these things add up.
Kids who know the law and their rights, know they can abuse who they want, do what they want and to who they want. little or no penalties to worry about - the CPS needs to get real and get tough as well
Last edited by Bar-Humbug!; 16 January 2008 at 07:55 PM.
16 January 2008, 08:05 PM
#4
^^^
Absolutley - and if you read Helens speech you will see that it is society that is the problem as well as gov't. Helen mentioned about how people just look out for themsleves and parents taking an interest in their kids, no doubt about it that this is vital.
However, one of the kids that killed her husband was let out on bail just hours earlier.
The Police had a campaign running (at the time) stopping these kids, emptying their drinks and sending them on their merry way - back to their stash or to the local sympathetic shop to buy more booze for pennies. Is that how to deal with it - really is it?
Drugs that these kids buy so cheaply and use as they see fit coming in from abroard so easily.
all these things add up.
Kids who know the law and their rights, know they can abuse who they want, do what they want and to who they want. little or no penalties to worry about - the CPS needs to get real and get tough as well
Absolutley - and if you read Helens speech you will see that it is society that is the problem as well as gov't. Helen mentioned about how people just look out for themsleves and parents taking an interest in their kids, no doubt about it that this is vital.
However, one of the kids that killed her husband was let out on bail just hours earlier.
The Police had a campaign running (at the time) stopping these kids, emptying their drinks and sending them on their merry way - back to their stash or to the local sympathetic shop to buy more booze for pennies. Is that how to deal with it - really is it?
Drugs that these kids buy so cheaply and use as they see fit coming in from abroard so easily.
all these things add up.
Kids who know the law and their rights, know they can abuse who they want, do what they want and to who they want. little or no penalties to worry about - the CPS needs to get real and get tough as well
If the parents fail to discipline the kids then the state should be it prison or conscription.
It's not always the fact that the shop staff are willing to sell them alcohol and ****. My mates sister (19) was forced by her parents to quit her job as shop assistant. since the age for cigarettes has been raised to 18, she has been attacked 3 times by underage yobs needing their fix. It must be bloody intimidating having a group of 5 or 6 yobs hurling abuse at you
16 January 2008, 08:20 PM
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If the parents fail to discipline the kids then the state should be it prison or conscription.
It's not always the fact that the shop staff are willing to sell them alcohol and ****. My mates sister (19) was forced by her parents to quit her job as shop assistant. since the age for cigarettes has been raised to 18, she has been attacked 3 times by underage yobs needing their fix. It must be bloody intimidating having a group of 5 or 6 yobs hurling abuse at you
It's not always the fact that the shop staff are willing to sell them alcohol and ****. My mates sister (19) was forced by her parents to quit her job as shop assistant. since the age for cigarettes has been raised to 18, she has been attacked 3 times by underage yobs needing their fix. It must be bloody intimidating having a group of 5 or 6 yobs hurling abuse at you
How about Police stations that have been shut over the last 20 years being reopened, how about more police on the streets, less paperwork, how about more police, less or no community support wasters. How about the removal of pointles targets that serve littl epurpose, etc.
It is all there in her speech for those who care to read - she has seen what happened first hand and makes valid points!
Last edited by Bar-Humbug!; 16 January 2008 at 08:22 PM.
16 January 2008, 08:30 PM
#6
Totally agree that we need more police out on the streets, a high presence may deter criminal acts, and if not, at least they are closer to hand to do something about it.
Helen's point of life should mean life is totally correct. A group or individual chooses to kill, what right do they have to their freedom?
Helen's point of life should mean life is totally correct. A group or individual chooses to kill, what right do they have to their freedom?
16 January 2008, 08:38 PM
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I'm a criminal barrister and have seen things like this coming for the last few years.
All this government cares about is saving money and having good figures/statistics (and before anyone says you must earn a fortune, I wish I did. Criminal barristers don't earn anywhere near as much as the press would have you believe!)
Our work load has decreased dramatically-there are far far fewer cases making there way through the Criminal System. And I'm damn sure that it isn't because crime has decreased dramatically!! Police forces are now handing out fixed penalties for extremely serious offences of violence which can be as little as £60. They do not amount to a criminal conviction on a persons record, but do count as a 'solved crime' for the governments statistics.
It's frustrating to read comments about lawyers getting people off etc when the truth of the situation is that the government have introduced policies which simply don't see people getting charged for offences that they carry out.
I'm predominantly a defence practitioner so could be said to be on the dark side! But, I never hesitate to give people proper advice and tell them what the score is - if people need to accept responsibility then I tell them. I'm also human and I feel just as frustrated and pi$$ed off as others that people are getting away with things.
We have, in our jury system, one of the best systems in the world. I am of the view that providing the witnesses are credible (and believe me many many aren't) charge people and let the courts decide.
The people who actually work in the system are dismayed at the decline that is happening. This government has interfered too much and it needs to stop. Next time you read a story where a Judge is accused of being too lenient, remember that he/she can only work within the guidelines set down by law and the government.
If the people in stuffy suits listened to those of us who actually do the job, maybe things wouldn't be in such a mess as they are now.
May sincere condolences are sent to the family who have suffered such a terrible loss.
All this government cares about is saving money and having good figures/statistics (and before anyone says you must earn a fortune, I wish I did. Criminal barristers don't earn anywhere near as much as the press would have you believe!)
Our work load has decreased dramatically-there are far far fewer cases making there way through the Criminal System. And I'm damn sure that it isn't because crime has decreased dramatically!! Police forces are now handing out fixed penalties for extremely serious offences of violence which can be as little as £60. They do not amount to a criminal conviction on a persons record, but do count as a 'solved crime' for the governments statistics.
It's frustrating to read comments about lawyers getting people off etc when the truth of the situation is that the government have introduced policies which simply don't see people getting charged for offences that they carry out.
I'm predominantly a defence practitioner so could be said to be on the dark side! But, I never hesitate to give people proper advice and tell them what the score is - if people need to accept responsibility then I tell them. I'm also human and I feel just as frustrated and pi$$ed off as others that people are getting away with things.
We have, in our jury system, one of the best systems in the world. I am of the view that providing the witnesses are credible (and believe me many many aren't) charge people and let the courts decide.
The people who actually work in the system are dismayed at the decline that is happening. This government has interfered too much and it needs to stop. Next time you read a story where a Judge is accused of being too lenient, remember that he/she can only work within the guidelines set down by law and the government.
If the people in stuffy suits listened to those of us who actually do the job, maybe things wouldn't be in such a mess as they are now.
May sincere condolences are sent to the family who have suffered such a terrible loss.
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16 January 2008, 10:39 PM
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The CPS don't help either Ritchie, their unwillingness to proceed with increasing numbers of cases doesn't help matters
16 January 2008, 11:14 PM
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Ive read all Helen Newloves statement, Bar-humbug.
It so sad to think that Helen and the girls have to live without their loved one.
True what ritchie21 says about the government only wanting to save money.
Policing time should be spent more on street crime rather than motoring.
(making money on motorists).
It was only yesterday i heard on the News that Nottingham was one city out of a few which the Police only gave out Cautions for carrying knives/weapons.
what is this about. saving paperwork
I also heard that Police also keep out of bad areas and only enter in extreme cases. They monitor a radius around the bad area to keep them in.
How bad is that.
My 13 year old boy was bullied at school and when the police was called we got a visit.
The injury was noted in his book, and was told he would call back to get a statement a week later.(as he was busy)
We was told the offender would be arrested in front of his parents and taken to the station.
Guess what. We never seen him again. I called to complain and still we heard nothing.
What confidence does that give us all.NONE
The Country is going to the Dogs.
We all need to shout up.
why dont we start a petition on here for laws on young offenders.
Create a new petition
think of a good heading.
It so sad to think that Helen and the girls have to live without their loved one.
True what ritchie21 says about the government only wanting to save money.
Policing time should be spent more on street crime rather than motoring.
(making money on motorists).
It was only yesterday i heard on the News that Nottingham was one city out of a few which the Police only gave out Cautions for carrying knives/weapons.
what is this about. saving paperwork
I also heard that Police also keep out of bad areas and only enter in extreme cases. They monitor a radius around the bad area to keep them in.
How bad is that.
My 13 year old boy was bullied at school and when the police was called we got a visit.
The injury was noted in his book, and was told he would call back to get a statement a week later.(as he was busy)
We was told the offender would be arrested in front of his parents and taken to the station.Guess what. We never seen him again. I called to complain and still we heard nothing.
What confidence does that give us all.NONE
The Country is going to the Dogs.
We all need to shout up.
why dont we start a petition on here for laws on young offenders.
Create a new petition
think of a good heading.
Last edited by borgie; 16 January 2008 at 11:19 PM.
16 January 2008, 11:16 PM
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Sadly, the only way it will change is if the victim had been a relation of one of our politicians.
Until they feel the pain and anguish there lack lustre, policy's and liberal attitudes have caused, nothing will change.
mart
Until they feel the pain and anguish there lack lustre, policy's and liberal attitudes have caused, nothing will change.
mart
16 January 2008, 11:57 PM
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Personally I think a curfew of the under 16's after 9pm should be in force. Why should the be allowed to roam the streets after that time unaccompanied. The only people I know who did that when I was young were up to no good.
17 January 2008, 09:02 AM
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What she said is what everyone has been saying around pub / dinner / snooker tables across the land for years.
Her voice has been heard by the media because of the absolutely tragic circumstances that her family have found themselves in.
The fact it has taken such a tragedy to spark "debate" on the subject shows how naive or ignorant the government, parents, police and retailers have been...
If this speech generates some good, then that's great but it should not have taken this story for those to whom blame can be apportioned in any way to take any positive action.
Her voice has been heard by the media because of the absolutely tragic circumstances that her family have found themselves in.
The fact it has taken such a tragedy to spark "debate" on the subject shows how naive or ignorant the government, parents, police and retailers have been...
If this speech generates some good, then that's great but it should not have taken this story for those to whom blame can be apportioned in any way to take any positive action.
17 January 2008, 09:19 AM
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My opinion is that there is no sense of 'fear' amongst teenagers of the ramifications of getting caught ............ whether that is the fear of somebody bigger 'sorting' them out or a tough time in prison. I am mid 30s and when I was younger the local parents were far happier to mix it up to stop teenagers messing about and it pretty much worked. Regardless of parenting you will always have kids pushing the boundaries (same as dogs in the that respect), we just need to find a way to deal with it.
In my simple mind there just needs to be consequences, proper consequences. What happened to the guy killed was out of order and it will happen again unfortunantly.
12months ago I confronted 3 teenagers, not knowing they were until I put my face in theirs having chased them for >1mile. With hindsight it maybe wasn't the right thing to do but I put the fear of god into them that night (I am rough looking at best and look dangerous carrying a baseball bat) and hopefully they have learnt their lesson in respecting people/property.
Edited to say no violence was dished out but I made my point that there would be if I caught them again.
In my simple mind there just needs to be consequences, proper consequences. What happened to the guy killed was out of order and it will happen again unfortunantly.
12months ago I confronted 3 teenagers, not knowing they were until I put my face in theirs having chased them for >1mile. With hindsight it maybe wasn't the right thing to do but I put the fear of god into them that night (I am rough looking at best and look dangerous carrying a baseball bat) and hopefully they have learnt their lesson in respecting people/property.
Edited to say no violence was dished out but I made my point that there would be if I caught them again.
Last edited by Bakerman; 17 January 2008 at 12:13 PM.
17 January 2008, 09:29 AM
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Let's not forget, that the so called Ring Leader was out on bail from having punched a guy in the head in a similar attack 7 days earlier. He was released on bail, despite protestations from the CPS, so long as he didn't go back to the area. He basically put 2 fingers up by even being there but my point here, is that the judges and magistrates in their safe country houses surrounded by big walls and so on don't realise what goes on on the streets anymore. It's time to shake up the whole judicial system from top to bottom so those lower in the food chain like the community officers etc, at least know that they have the weight of the law behind them.
As an aside, some of you may have seen a post I wrote yesterday about coming back to the UK after 2 years in Spain and the differences I noted? Well, a bigger noticable change goes back to about 25 or more years ago when I was a kid. We, as a family, lived in a high rise council flat on a now notorious inner London estate. One weekend we were at a wedding on the opposite side of the main road and guests saw people moving around our flat with the light on. A group of guys from the wedding went with my Dad and they confronted the teenage gang of burglers, catching them all as they tried to leg it. The kids, aged 15-17 were given a good beating before the Police arrived where (according to my Mum who was obviously very distressed at the time), the Police also gave the kids a good hiding as well. My Dad and his lot got nicked and everyone was allowed on their way the next day. Those kids never got prosecuted (I guess as it would have meant charges for my Dad as well) but they never dared show their faces on that estate again because everybody, from major local criminal to old lady in the street lived by the ethic of not s****ing on your own doorstep and those that did got tarred. Actions like the Truelove murder just go to show how kids nowadays don't even fear the consequences post crime, let alone honour the unwritten rules of living side by side in a community. Of course, in the 70's the Police were allowed to give a good wallop to the scum as well, and that helped
As an aside, some of you may have seen a post I wrote yesterday about coming back to the UK after 2 years in Spain and the differences I noted? Well, a bigger noticable change goes back to about 25 or more years ago when I was a kid. We, as a family, lived in a high rise council flat on a now notorious inner London estate. One weekend we were at a wedding on the opposite side of the main road and guests saw people moving around our flat with the light on. A group of guys from the wedding went with my Dad and they confronted the teenage gang of burglers, catching them all as they tried to leg it. The kids, aged 15-17 were given a good beating before the Police arrived where (according to my Mum who was obviously very distressed at the time), the Police also gave the kids a good hiding as well. My Dad and his lot got nicked and everyone was allowed on their way the next day. Those kids never got prosecuted (I guess as it would have meant charges for my Dad as well) but they never dared show their faces on that estate again because everybody, from major local criminal to old lady in the street lived by the ethic of not s****ing on your own doorstep and those that did got tarred. Actions like the Truelove murder just go to show how kids nowadays don't even fear the consequences post crime, let alone honour the unwritten rules of living side by side in a community. Of course, in the 70's the Police were allowed to give a good wallop to the scum as well, and that helped
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