NotoriousREV

MrsREV has ended up in a disciplinary at work after having 4 seperate occasions of sickness in 12 months. All have been genuine sicknesses and in fact, the last sickness was down to a traffic accident which has exacerbated a problem with epycondilitis and carpal tunnel syndrome that she's been battling with for a few months. She is now having physio and has to wear elbow and wrist supports for the foreseeable future.

My question is: Is it legal for a company to invoke a disciplinary procedure when a doctor has signed her off? She has ended up going back to work against medical advice because of this and I'm really hacked off.

OllyK

Is it a true disciplinary? We have a formal return from sick interview after 4 occurrences in a rolling 12 month period, just to make sure the person is OK, to see if there is a recurring illness we should be aware of etc etc. It is recorded, but it isn't disciplinary as such.

NotoriousREV

Yup, full on official disciplinary hearing. She's been told to expect a verbal warning. Not the end of the world, but it's the principle that gets my goat.

OllyK

Does she have a copy of her T's & C's? If they are setting a limit fo 4 incidents regardless then is should be documented one would hope.

john_s

iTrader: (1)

I'm not specialist (I look after the employment law issues for the small company I work for), but my understanding is that genuine sickness (especially that backed up by doctors) would be sufficient grounds that disciplinary action could not be taken for abscence.

As a more serious matter, I'd say that being told to expect a verbal warning could be an indication that the outcome of the hearing was already decided (and therefore prejudiced), and she did not receive a fair hearing, especially if the warning came from someone involved in the hearing.

If I were in that position, afterwards, I'd immediately appeal the verbal warning on that basis.

Don't forget she's got a right to be accompanied at the hearing.

HTH, but as ever, feel free to post more or PM if you'd like to dicuss in private.

John.

Brendan Hughes

Wow, nice point...

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

Companies can issue warnings for this, usually though for the first stage it is classed as councilling (is with the co I work for). We also do a return to work interview as well just to make sure there is nothing seriously wrong and that everything is okay in their personal life (obviously we are quite tactful in that respect)

Basically Mrs Rev can be deemed to be in breach of her employment contract. Unfortunately its the way business are going about things now due to the amount of works days lost per year through illness/sickness. Its just sad that the genuine cases (as in Mrs Rev) also get penalised as well.

RMA26

Companies usually complete “back to work” interviews with employee’s after any period of sickness.

If an employee has been signed off for any period of time via a doctor’s note, it was the doctor’s decision that the employee is not well enough to work - A qualified medical employee (NHS) - out of the employees hands

It would be worth while noting that your other half is quite within her right to be accompanied to any meetings, or chats about this (and I would strongly advise this, speaking from personal experience not connected with sickness at my old firm) – maybe a friend, neutral employee, Union rep etc.

I was unfortunate (or is that fortunate you ask?) to have 4.5 months away from work, medical signed off with “Work Related Stress” (Granted Stress is not the issue here” and they could not contest this, as the facts were there which proved it was their fault (I wont cover the why’s etc.)

It may be useful for your other half to contact the Citizens Advice and seek further assistance, also print off any work policies and dissect these further. I would also advice any notes which your doctor can provide, or evidence to be attained should this be needed for a complaint against the company, in case of tribuneral etc.

My current employer was made aware of my sickness record, but as each sick note was documented “Work Related Stress” they did not feel that this was an issue

Please contact me if you should need anything else

Maybe your other half would consider making an official grievance against these actions, should the warning be implimented?

Mark

NotoriousREV

Well, just heard that they gave her a verbal warning. She has informed them that she plans to appeal. They also in the meeting noted that she had previously had a disciplinary hearing in 2003 (which I also believe is wrong as verbal warnings can only be kept on record for 12 months).

The DTi website says that you cannot treat genuine sickness as a disciplinary matter.

She has had back to work reviews after each period of sickness. Out of the 4 periods (Oct 2005, Nov 2005, Dec 2005 and June 2006) 3 have been accompanied with a Doctors note. Two are directly work related (one an ear infection after being made to use a 2nd hand headset for 2 weeks following her return to work from maternity leave and someone having nicked her headset and them not having any in stock)

phil_wrx

iTrader: (2)

yep spot on, if she has any evidence that this has been said then she has grounds for an appeal whitin 7 days on the grounds of prejudice.

on the sickness, yes companies can do as they please with regards what sickness aslong as all employee's are aware.

example i had to give a warning to a driver that had a heart attack as it totted up enough points for a verbal warning, doesnt seem fair but it makes it so u cant have favourites

john_s

iTrader: (1)

I think it's only six months that a warning can be considered valid for.

Plus I believe disciplinary action can only be taken to the next stage if it's for a similar offence. eg a verbal warning for (say) poor performance could not be escalated to a written warning after (say) turning up for work late.

John.

brumdaisy

Im with him ^^^^^

We have this type of policy too but *as I understand it* they CAN NOT take disciplinary action if your absence is covered my doctors notes.

Also, note that one of her absences (ear infection) was due to her employers negligence (if thats the right word). She ought to be suing them!

I would be getting some 'proper' legal advice now. It wont cost an arm and a leg to find out what options she has and it might just shut them up...... until she finds herself a decent job where she isnt treated like ****e

tell us all who she works for Im absolutely disgusted

shaunywrx

I'm not 100% certain, but about 95% that you are allowed to have a continuous 12 month sickness period ( as long as you have proper doctors certificates ) without you employer being allowed to disipline you for it. I say this on the basis of an ex work colleauge, who had lung cancer and was always of work, but we could'nt legally do anything about it, we just had to pay his sick pay, and after 51 weeks, he resigned on the grounds of ill health.
P.S. Good luck to your wife for both her health and her job, although it sounds like shes working for a bunch of ****s.

NotoriousREV

Hello Mrs Rev here,
Thanks for all your help and advice. I work for a large global logistics company.
What has really wound me up is that they have not only told me i will be getting a verbal warning for my sickness but also also reminded me that i had a previous disaplinary hearing where i was basically let off for ie no action was taken.I asked when this was as it was a long time ago i was quoted the exact date some time in July 2003. However thay said that had not influenced their decision i asked why i was mentioned then and surely this should no longer be on my records. I feel prejudged and will be taking this further

Smiler

Stop right there.

Who told her to expect a verbal warning? If it was anyone involved in the case then once issued appeal it in writing.

A disciplinary meeting has to follow procedures. You meet to discuss the issues, you can bring a witness (who isn't allowed to ask questions). You should then be asked to leave the room whilst a decision is taken.

If you have already been told to expect a verbal then they have already made their minds up and that is judged to be unfair.

letdown

My first thing to do is ask the question "Why are they coming after me?"

Anything else going on?......does the boss not like her?...argument with someone?

Either way something has triggerd them off...and I doubt its the sickness.

NotoriousREV

I should point out that the "expect a verbal warning" didn't come from anyone involved in the disciplinary, but from people who have had the same thing done to them. Sorry to mislead you guys, obviously that changes things a bit. That was me misinterpreting something she said to me.

The company policy does state that the disciplinary procedure should be followed for 4 sicknesses in 12 months BUT a disciplinary hearing doesn't always = warning (verbal or otherwise).

We believe (although we are taking professional advice) that because her sickness is genuine and provable the warning shouldn't stand. We also believe that the noted reference in her disciplinary hearing to a previous hearing 3 years ago (which didn't end in a warning being given) shows prejudice on the part of the hearing.

MrsREV has also demanded to be seen by the company's Occupational Health people. You'd think given that the company is supposed to have done a return to work review they'd have suggested this in the first place.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

does she work for dhl exel?

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

I agree with this totally.

This is true if the doctors note hasn't been signed off by the doctor. However doctors can and do sign off people if they ask them to be signed off. I currently have an ongoing case at work with the "teflon don" who does this.


I agree with the first part, however companies can discipline employees even for genuine sickness. As long as the company has a clear policy and that this policy is available to all employees to view, then they are not breaking any laws as long as the company follows this policy to the word. If the policy was followed then a tribunal will probably not be successful.