Iain Young

Hi folks,

I was wondering whether there are any camera gurus out there that could answer my question.

When I look at a sunset through my sunglasses (permanent dark brown polarised lenses), it makes it look very dramatic, cuts down the light / brightness so you can actually see it, and the edges of clouds etc are much better defined.

What I want to know is if there is a filter available for (for a standard SLR lense) to produce a similar effect, and if so, what sort is it. I've already got a polarizing filter (for clouds etc), but it doesn't produce quite the effect I'm after, and lets too much light in for certain sunset shots.

Thanks,
Iain

IWatkins

Iain,

Ignoring the obvious dangers of looking at the sun through a lens, the filter you want is an ND or neutral density. They cut down the light levels without changing the colour at all. You can get various grades that usally cut light by a various number of stops (f stops that is).

Cheers

Ian

Iain Young

Thanks Ian,

I presume you would use this in conjunction with the polarizer to really bring out the cloud effects etc?

p.s. I do know about the dangers of looking at the sun, but this is more for the situations where the sun is covered by cloud, but it's still bright enough that it washes out any detail etc (for example http://www.iainbyoung.co.uk/details.php?image_id=204) - and I'm VERY careful when I'm, trying to take these sort of photos....

Iain

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Iain

You'll struggle to achieve the effect you're looking for, because the dynamic range of the eye is much greater than that of film. Sunsets typically consist of a bright sky with much darker foreground detail, and few if any films can really capture both at once - either the sky will be washed out, or the foreground rendered black.

There are a couple of options available to you. One is to use a so-called 'graded neutral density' filter, which is darker at one side than the other. So, provided you fit it the right way up, you get a strong darkening effect over the sky, but the foreground is left alone.

Another, particularly useful if you have a digital camera, is to set up the camera on a tripod and take multiple shots with varying exposures. You can then combine them digitally to achieve the same effect.

Iain Young

Hi Andy,

I was coming to that conclusion, but was hoping that I might be able to get somewhere closer what I am seeing with my eyes than I am getting at the moment, (I've seen similar images reproduced in magazines / books so it must be possible somehow).

I've got a digital SLR (Canon EOS-10D) and so I could try the image editing / multiple exposure route. Not easy to do when the clouds and sea are moving though. I'll have a look into the graduated nd filters as well...

Thanks,
Iain

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

It's quite easy with the 10D. Got a tripod? Set the camera to AEB (auto exposure bracketing) of 1 - 1.5 stops, stick it on continuous drive and hold down the fire button. You'll get a bracketed sequence of 3 shots within 1 sec.

Iain Young

Cool, I'll give it a try. (Still learning how to use the camera )

Thanks,
Iain

ProperCharlie

even so, still a very nice photo.

Iain Young

Thanks

MadGrip

not really up on slr's , I usually work with 35mm movie cameras.

For a good light ground and to Nd the sky ,we use grad (gradient) filters. ie darker at the top than the bottom, with various colours and F Stops.

maybe these are available for SLR's ??

Phil

Daryl

http://www.leefilters.com/CPEF.asp?PageID=80

Perhaps these are the sort of things you are looking for. Lee filters are supposed to be what all the top landscape photographers use, but I think they are quite expensive. Cokin do a cheaper version, available at Jessop's, which I used to use occasionally, prior to switching to digital.

You can also get the same effect by using Photoshop, if you want I can let you know how to do it.

Whatever you choose to do, subtle effects tend to work best

Nice photo. BTW

dba

be careful if you are going hand held and using polarizer and an nd,thats 2/3 stops i think,on slow film thats shake land

IWatkins

Iain,

10D ? Just like me then

Having looked at the shot you posted, I see (now) what you are getting at.

You do indeed need a graduated neutral density filter (various grades if you can afford). This is where the dark part goes over the sky and the clear part over the land. It acts to reduce the dynamic range in the image and hopefully allow you to capture the whole lot in one exposure (or at least better than it was).

You can indeed use a polariser as well. Or indeed stack two ND grads. to give a different effect etc.

If you plan to do a lot of this, I can recommend the Cokin "P" Series system. Combined with a tripod (essential for landscape/sunset shots), and using mirror lockup with a cable release (or self timer), you should be able to get great landscape/sunset shots. I do this a lot with my 10D.

If you think you might do this a lot, i.e. become the main part of your photography, then I would highly recommend the Lee filter system. It isn't cheap but the results are slightly better then the Cokin system. It is also harder wearing and overall just more professional. You would only need a set of ND grads and a polariser (circular not linear). Forget most of the other filters, you can do most stuff in Photoshop etc.

If you need any more help, just ask as landscape shooting is my thing.

Example of using an ND grad:



Cheers

Ian

Iain Young

Thanks everyone (and nice picture Ian ).

The Lee filters look very good, but they are a bit pricey. Think I might have to save up a bit before taking the plunge.

I'm just in the process of trying to progress beyond the automatic settings in the camera (landscape, sports etc), and so this is all new territory for me. The primary type of photography I'm interested in is landscape stuff, and so I may well be asking a few more questions soon.

Does anyone know if there are any good books on the subject (landscape photography)?

Thanks,
Iain

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

The problem I've found with books on the subject is that they tend not to be up to date with digital techniques. I'm sure Ian's right about ND grad filters, but I'd definitely be producing this sort of image in Photoshop from a bracketed sequence of photos, rather than trying to capture the shot in one go.

Before you go out and spend more money on equipment, take the time to understand the capabilities of the camera you already have. For a start, get out of the preset 'landscape' mode on the command dial and into Av (aperture priority). Set an aperture of about f/8 (or maybe something a bit smaller, say f/13, if you're using a long lens or need a lot of DoF). Mount the camera on a tripod. Now compose your shot and take a photo using the metered exposure. If the sun is in the frame it'll probably come out rather dark, but at least the highlights shouldn't be overexposed.

Now you want one or two shots which expose for the foreground instead. Delve into the camera's menus and enable AEB (auto exposure bracketing) of about +/- 1 stop. Half press the shutter and set exposure compensation to +1 stop, so now you should see three little ticks on the exposure scale: one in the centre (correct exposure), one at +1 stop and one at +2 stops. Put the camera in continuous mode and hold down the shutter and you'll get three photos. Of these, at least one should have the correct exposure for the sky and another, the foreground. If not, play with compensation and bracketing until you do!

If the scene isn't changing rapidly, you could then re-shoot using a remote release (or the self timer) and mirror lock-up to get the sharpest possible results. After all, you've made the effort so far! Use RAW mode and a low ISO setting to get the best quality too.

Back home, convert your RAW files into 16-bit TIFFs (I use BreezeBrowser for this purpose) and load them into Photoshop. You can now experiment with adjusting curves & levels on each shot - you may end up with a result you like even this way. Failing that:

- copy your 'sky' image to the clipboard and paste it into a new layer on top of your 'foreground' image.
- Add a layer mask for this new layer.
- Click the layer mask and choose the gradient fill tool.
- Choose the gradient fill to be 'Black to White'
- Fill the layer mask with a gradient from top to bottom.
- Voila! One free graded ND filter

IWatkins

Iain,

Look at just about any book by Peter Watson, Joe Cornish or Charlie Waite, but the links there go to what I think are their best books.

For the digital manipulation phase, I can recommend two books for landscape photographers:

"Digital Landscape Photography" by Tim Gartside
"Digital Enhancement for Landscape Photographers" by Arjan Hoogendam and Herb Parkin

Both books deal with issues like post processing to enhance features, how to do mock infra-red, cropping for best effect, removal of unwanted features etc. etc. Both give useful information rather than gimicky manipulation stuff and as the titles suggest are for landscape photographers. Both books are very Photoshop specific though.

Cheers

Ian

Iain Young

Thanks chaps, looks like I have a bit of experimenting (and reading) to do. I've already got a tripod and remote relase etc, so I'm some of the way there. Just need a bit of good weather so I can get and and try some of this...

I'll also check out those books Ian. My canon came with a copy of Photoshop elements, and so (hopefully) it will have enough of the features mentioned in the books to make them useful...

I'll be in touch if (when) I have more questions

Iain

alistair

And when in doubt under expose. You can always extract more detail from the shadows bits using Photoshop, but the over exposed highlights are lost forever.

Photoshop CS has an amazing Shadow/Highlight tool which is perfect for this kind of shot.

IWatkins

But if you can get the shot in a single exposure, try to very slightly over expose with the 10D, but without clipping the highlights. The way the sensor data is captured you want as much of the data in the midtones/highlights area due to the non-linear nature of capture. More info. in this article and I can vouch for it's accuracy.

More useful info on the Luminous Landscapes site, which has bags of other useful stuff. Worth a sit down and read the whole site.

Cheers

Ian

Iain Young

Blimey, getting information overload here

Seriously though, thanks for the advice and links everyone. It's given me a lot of stuff to read / think about. Just need some time to go experimenting now...

Do you know if photoshop elements contains everything I need for doing this sort of thing? I've only used it for cropping images etc up to now so am not sure of its capabilities. Not sure I can afford the full version at the moment...

Thanks again,
Iain

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Yes, Elements is fine - although I believe it lacks the Curves dialogue that gives very fine control over brightness correction. It still supports layers, layer masks and levels adjustment, which are all you need to merge multiple images together.

Iain Young

Thanks

Geezer

If you are capturing in RAW, Photoshop CS no has a RAW plugin, which supports most of the popular Digital Cameras that can capture in RAW. I have used it and it is very good, you can alter all sorts of stuff before converting to tiff or any other format, it's like having control over the cameras internal software!

Might be worth a look..... CS RAW Plugin

Geezer

Edited to add what RAW plugin can actually do..........

Here’s what you can do with the raw plug-in of Photoshop CS:
You can change the picture size up to + or – 200%. (Twice as big, or as small) and the quality is extremely good. Really GOOD!!
You can change the resolution to any value, assign a colour space (adobe RGB 1998, ColorMatch, ProPhoto and sRGB, to state a few), and select the bit depth per channel 8 or 16.
You can rotate the picture, move through the picture, zoom in and out and select the white point with an eyedropper (select a pure white area in the pic).
The white balance can also be selected from a custom setting by manually selecting the temperature value (from 2000 to 50000), or from a menu: as shot, daylight, cloudy, shade, tungsten, fluorescent and flash.
You can also add a tint to that white balance setting.
You can adjust the overall exposure from -2 stops to +4 stops, with an increment of 0.01.
You can adjust the shadows exposure only, on a 0-100 scale; and the shadows tint.
You can adjust the highlights exposure only, on a 0-100 scale.
You can adjust overall brightness, contrast and saturation.
You can adjust sharpness, luminance smoothness and colour noise reduction.
You can adjust for chromatic aberrations in two groups, red/cyan and blue/yellow.
You can correct for vignetting.
You can adjust red hue and saturation, green hue and saturation, and blue hue and saturation independently.

Finally you click ok, and the picture goes back into the traditional Photoshop window. By the way, the adjustments made in the raw plug-in are memorised, so the next time you open that same raw file you can see the last adjustments and work from there, or simply disregard them and start from the beginning.

In any case, once in the traditional Photoshop window you can perform ALL adjustments and processing you are used to do. (Usually it doesn’t require much because everything is well done in the plug-in itself; maybe you just crop and sharpen)

When you want to save, you get prompted to specify a file extension (TIFF, Photoshop, Cineon, Photoshop PDF, Photoshop RAW and PNG), and the picture is saved, the raw file being intact and the adjustments saved in the file format you specified!

Iain Young

That does look a bit good doesn't it

I've wanted photoshop for ages (years), but have never been able to justify the cost. Looks as though this feature (along with a few others) might tip the balance though.Think I'll have to start saving my pennies........

Cheers,
Iain